Knife Use in SD - aftermath?

Joined
Mar 7, 2001
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Has anyone ever had to use your EDC for SD? What is the aftermath?
Concern about your blade contaminated with disease (HIV, maybe) that you won't use it for shaving anymore?

Personally I have not and wish would never have to.

Edited to add:
(I should have made it clear for some newcomers :) )
Many of us knife carrier has at least one as the EDC (Every Day Carry) as a tool, to help in work but might be prepared to use it for Self Defense (SD) if need arises. I belongs to this group, and need to know others' experience in regards to this.
 
Self-defense.

I personally wouldn't use the blade. Who knows what kind of nasty bugs the BG might have. You should really get a knife with a nice deep finger choil and guard so that your hand won't run up the blade when you hit bone. It would probably be confiscated for a while, first, while you're in court. Then when you get out, you'd want to destroy the knife for all the trouble it caused you, when it probably would have been easier to run like hell :)

But of course, there *may* be the time when you can't run, and have to defend yourself with a blade.
 
I did once when I was about 16 years old I got jumped by two older guys, both in their 20's. One guy grabbed me with my arms behind me, and the other guy started punchin' me, after he hit me in the face I went nuts, I was able to grab my Old Timer 18OT outa my belt sheath,(before clips), and flip it open with one hand,(before thumb holes, and studs), and I shook the other guy off me,( ever try to hold a 15 year old wrestler?), and came out slashin'. I caught the guy who was punchin' me in the stomach, cut through his jacket, shirt, and enough skin to draw blood, but not open him up, which was good cause I was scared and the knife was sharp enough to do it.
To make a long story short the fact that he was bleedin' was enough for him and his buddy to forget about me, I threw the knife and ran.
I did go back and look for it, actually found it, it had a little blood on the belly of the blade. I closed it up, took it home, and cleaned it up, and continued to use the knife as an EDC for a few more years, till I retired it to my non-rotational collection, of retired blades.
Funny, back in 1976 I didn't know what Aids was, I don't think anyone here did, now I don't know what I'd do, do you throw out a perfectly good $100+ knife?
What happens if you let someone borrow your knife and they come back and say, "boy that's sharp, it took 4 stitches to close the cut"
Is that scenario really any different today?
 
Originally posted by T. Erdelyi

Funny, back in 1976 I didn't know what Aids was, I don't think anyone here did, now I don't know what I'd do, do you throw out a perfectly good $100+ knife?
What happens if you let someone borrow your knife and they come back and say, "boy that's sharp, it took 4 stitches to close the cut"
Is that scenario really any different today?

Well, in 1976, none of use knew what AIDS was; it wasn't indentified until 1979.

HIV can be dangerous, but it's not the BOOGEYMAN. If you are concerned about possible contamination, simply disinfect and/or sterilize your knife. Depending on scale materials and blade steel (carbon vs. stainless), you can use a chlorine bleach solution (best), alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, or even boiling water. Use the internet and do some research; the information you need is out there.
 
Hey dsvirsky,
My statement wasn't meant as a slam on any HIV positive individuals, and the comment about throwing away a "perfectly good knife" was not to be insensitive, I was just remembering when I was a kid and I realized that HIV, was not an issue back then, now I'm feelin' kinda of old, once again no offense intended, just a reply without some forethought.
 
Whenever i end up with blood on a blade i just wash it under hot water with soap for a while, then wipe it off with tissue paper. As for aftermath, well it depends on what has happened, if the police are involved and you are a suspect, the best thing to do is get rid of the blade effectively, or hide it VERY well, however, if you're attacked by someone you don't know and you use the knife on them, the best thing to do is get away from the situation as fast as you can without raising suspicion, if this is possible you should be able to keep the knife. It's more likely that you will be attacked somewhere remote, you can use this to your advantage because no-one will see your reaction, no witnesses. That's what i think anyway.
 
If this is truly self defense, what's the problem? Call the law. Yes, they'll probably take the knife and they might transport you for questioning, but thius scenario assumes a righteous use to save a life.

I wouldn't be evading the police, hiding the knife, destroying evidence or the like. Yikes, the body will turn up, or at least the perp at the emergency room. Why did YOU run? Are YOU the perp?

A hundred, or even a few hundred bucks for a knife is money well spent. My defense firearm is a SW 4516. Yes, the police will take it and yes I'll be out 700 bucks. So what?

I think the HIV issue is a valid one. I don't want a mugger's blood on me, either.
 
Here there is no such thing as self defense as far as the law goes, if you're found with a knife and theres a guy dead or badly injured nearby, it's not gonna look good for you. The justice system is a joke. You ran because you found the conflict emotionally disturbing, you panicked and wanted to get out of there.
 
Yes, as mentioned use the proper decon procedures for blood borne pathogens and you will be fine.
 
Although there is much controversy about the existance of an AIDs virus as such, to my knowledge it has always been claimed that any such pathogen would die very quickly once out of the human body. However, it should be standard procedure to sterilise anything that has come into contact with someone else's body fluids.

My concerns would focus more on prosecution for unreasoable use of force, or manslaughter. Although I carry a knife as a potential self defense weapon, I would hesitate to use it even when confronted with an armed assailant. It is all to easy to cause fatal injuries.

Kallisti.
 
Krept, I think you put your finger on the pathogen issue when you used the word "proper."

I used to buy infection control equipment and supplies. Metal items were easy, use steam sterilization. Barrier protection works for gloves, smocks and chairs.

However, there are only three liquids that are proven for soaking and wiping, iodofors, phenols, and glutareldahides (my spelling may be off, it's been ten years.)

Our endodontist used bleach in some instances.

Alcohol wipes were worthless for the most part, and we stopped using them to wrap handpieces.

I think most rookies would use commercial grocery-store hand-soap and think they did a good job. We bought soap from a dental supply company and the medical staff used it to wash at least four times per day.

I think that rinsing a knife off in the sink is far too simplistic.
 
Most of the knives I own would not be bothered at all by being boiled, or a little bath in weak chlorine solution, or even acetone. Germs be dead.
 
I never thought of that. This place is full of great people with great ideas..CAN'T YOU JUST LET ME LIVE IN MY BUBBLE!?!?...j/k!

I carry some cheap, dull folder in a pocket or clipped on my belt, but it mainly serves me as an impact weapon in SD..then comes the stabbing..and slashing ;). If it gets dirty (germs..yak!), I'll just toss it and get a new one. Those germs are enough to break all the emotional bonds..and of course I clean off my fingerprints too, and get rid of the tool and cloth. Maybe I should just ask the mugger politely if he has HIVs in his blood (That could be considered murder, LOL). I'm mean, nasty and tired, so I'll head to bed. Thanks for the idea -- I'll sure keep it in my mind!

Cheers,
The Beaten & Tired
 
SD doesn't forbid striking first. If you can say why you did such an act and explain it as reasonable, you can get away with almost anything.

If you are arrested, SHUT UP. do not explain yourself to the nice cop who brought you a cup of coffee.

ask to go to the hospital cause you think you are gonna puke or something and then ask for a lawyer.

and don't fall for the sympathy routine from the police officers when he tells you the punk deserved it and he would have done the same.

GET AN LAWYER.

will you go to jail for a bit. yes, cause things have to be sorted out. if their is a body laying around, that gets police annoyed cause they have to deal with it till the court determines who gets it.

if you have a presence in the comunity and have roots, likely you will be released on your own to appear at your next court date.

don't skip and have a benchwarrant issued. bounty hunters will love you, but you wont like them...

If you can explain the threat, and how you rationaly determined from your life experience that it merritted lethal force, you are likely to be acquitted in a criminal case.

No, I'm not a lawyer...yet.

I'll repost my SD post here soon
 
I wrote this essay, and Don Rearic helped me in the editing and added some important details. I was writing this for my Jujitsu teacher after we had a discussion about justifying deadly force. After Monday's class I whipped out my criminal law book and summarised the section on self-defense.

Without Further Delay:

A first point to remember is that self-defense is considered a justification for using force. It is a defense to a criminal charge such as assault, battery, assault with a deadly weapon/implement or murder. In response to one of these charges the defense would be to plead not guilty and claim self-defense.

As a justification, it has good points and bad points. A good point is that if you can explain what you did was reasonable, you walk away. A bad point is that you have to say you did it, but you were justified in doing it. That precludes you saying that it was not you that did the deed.

In a criminal case, the prosecution has the burden of proving what they consider to be the illegal, criminal or overzealous nature of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt, almost to the point of 100% proof. The legal defense of Self-defense, in contrast, requires the defendant only to prove its case to a preponderance of the evidence, just over 50%.

A model set of requirement for “Self-defense” as a viable, legal defense is:

1 The defendant believed physical force to be necessary for self-protection;
2 the belief is based on reasonable grounds,
3 the force used was necessary to avoid imminent danger,
4 the force used was not in excess of that believed necessary to repel the unlawful attack.

Another requirements is that the defender must not have been the one to start the fight. For instance, A cannot go up to B, assault B, and when B responds, and A fights B off, A can not claim self defense as justification for the injuries he gave B while fighting B off, unless B, the assaulted person in question, used excessive force and A can prove that. This is another difficult case that will no doubt be handled on a case by case basis and nothing will be written in stone.

Non-physical provocation is never answerable by physical force. Verbal assault does not allow a person to respond physically, unless accompanied my an action that is threatening. For example, A says “I’m going to kill you!!” then A reaches into his car for something. In that case A’s words give weight to his actions and may represent an immediate threat. See requirement 3 above.

People also have no right to use force against an arrest made by a police officer, even if the arrest is unlawful. That is from the Model Penal Code, and may not be valid in all states, but it’s likely that it is.[ ]

Deadly force is not justified if the actor can avoid the necessity of using deadly force by retreating with complete safety. This is the infamous “Duty to Retreat” statutes in some states. Note it’s “complete safety,” that means you don’t have to run if you feel you will not be able to escape the attacker, you have to defend someone else, or in most cases, in your home. A good example of retreat with complete safety is if you are seated in your vehicle and someone approached your vehicle and was obviously hostile, don’t bother staying around if you feel in danger, simply drive away. Exiting the vehicle to confront them would make you an active participant unless there were other circumstances. If the person approached with a firearm in plain view and you were carrying a firearm, you also may be able to engage with your weapon instead of fleeing if it is clear that fleeing instead of neutralizing the person making the approach, you could be killed or suffer grave, bodily injury.

Another point to mention, if carrying of a weapon for self defense in violation of a states law prohibiting such a weapon, and the weapon is used reasonable and lawfully for self defense, the justification of Self-defense is unlikely to affect the charge of carrying the weapon itself. For example, Nunchaku are illegal in MA, yet if used to defend yourself lawfully with them you may still be charged with their possession and illegal carrying/concealment of them.

States have varying weapon laws for firearms and non-firearm weapons. Some states allow citizens quite a variety, others are quite strict. MA, for example requires a permit for pepper spray, and it may be illegal to carry a kuboton in MA as it is a martial arts weapon.

Now to pick apart the four requirements I listed above. #1 is linked with #2 and there application is very simple. The defender must reasonably believe that physical force is necessary for their protection.

The reasonable part is the difficult part. What is reasonable to you may not be reasonable to me, and what we can agree upon may be different to someone else. The basic set for a two handed front choke may is likely to be reasonable to most people. Hitting someone in the throat with an edge of hand blow for grabbing their arm may not be depending on the circumstances. For example, if two men similar in size were the attacker and defender, this might not be reasonable. If the “attacker” grabs the “defender’s” arm and then tried to draw a weapon and was actively trying to control the “defender,” then the rules change. Also, simply unarmed, if a man grabs a woman’s arm and it is clear that he is going to try to drag the woman to a waiting vehicle or a secluded area, like a stand of trees on the periphery of a parking lot, clearly for the purpose of kidnap and/or rape, the woman might very well be able to use lethal force against an unarmed attacker who outweighs her, etc.

Next, point three, that physical force may only be used to avoid imminent attack is important in that it limits the time frame when physical Self-defense may be used. The justification of Self-defense only protects a person against imminent danger. Responding to past or future danger is revenge or a Pearl Harbor style preemptive strike. Self-defense does not preclude striking first to avoid an imminent assault; it only precludes striking first when no danger is imminent. For example, If A approaches B stating A is going to rip out B’s______, and it is reasonable clear A is going to assault B, and B then hits A in the jaw with a jab-cross combo it would most likely be interpreted as reasonable because B was in fear of great bodily harm or death and although A did not actually assault B, the danger was imminent, and the fear reasonable.

The fourth point, that the force used should not be in excess of that believed necessary to repel that unlawful attack is simple in application. Once Mr. Bad Guy is no longer a threat to you, please stop hurting him. If A tries to punch B, and B responds with a block and a palm-strike to the face, edge of hand blow to the neck and a knee to the groin, then A falls down, B has used the force necessary to repel the unlawful attack. A finishing kick or hand blow after a throw incorporated into the technique would not be a shot just for the hell of it, but a legitimate technique to insure the defender’s safety. If B then decides to give A one more kick for good measure, B is now unlawfully assaulting A.


Comments or questions invited.
 
Laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. However, there are two things you should always do assuming an incident as described: Shut up; and, Call an attorney. You have a constitutional right to do both.

Do not run. Do not disturb the scene. Do not try to hide or alter evidence. All of those things constitute separate crimes and will only serve to get you further into the sh-t.
 
and just think, the "average" deadly encounter takes place up close and personal and is over in less than 10 seconds.

Sure have ALOT to think about and if you hesitate to think you lose. When you find yourself in a situation where you need to defend your life you will be reacting to an action.

You need to have thought out all of this stuff long before you EVER end up in an encounter as the only time you will have will be to utter "oh sh*t" while you are doing whatever you must to survive. If you carry a knife or gun and have any intentions to use them for self-defense, you need to have the mindset already established that you are going to do whatever you must to survive.

Then do-it and if you win the day, hire a LAWYER. If you lose, your Estate can hire one.

But this kind of stuff never happens...............
 
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