Knives on the Ground

[SM24]

Break open a new discussion!

Has anyone trained in defensive use of the knife while on the ground (grappling range)?

If so, what have you discovered technique and tactics-wise?

What are your thoughts on the specific legal ramifications of defending yourself from the ground, if any? (What kinds of attacks are you likely to have to deal with, and do these change the status of the situation?)

I've trained in both the knife and groundfighting, but not together, so I have some ideas, but not practice.

 

[r.j. squirrel]

I haven't trained anything formally; simply experimented to see what works for me. Assuming I'm on my back and he's in the mount I've confidence in one thing: reverse grip thrusts. Trying to slash I have very limited arm motion if the arm is outside my body because of it hitting the ground. Also, if someone is on top of me I may not get any torso rotation. In a saber-type grip the arm/wrist tends to be pulled at a funny angle if the guy is very close; I have no room to draw back and get a good thrust.
If I'm in reverse grip my arm is across my body - this puts me in "punji-stick mode" if he wants to come down on me. My knife arm is where I can control it; and the thrust has a surprising amount of power. Maybe not so surprising as when you're on the ground you've got a "stance" that's as rooted as can be.
Haven't figured out any good way to move around/roll around and still have blade control.

 

[Smoke]

H.Hochheim, R. Balicki, T. Blauer, J. Maffei and M. DeAlba have some material.

 

[SM24]

Here are some of my thoughts on it:

The main striking advantage of any top position is the additional power from going with gravity. Likewise, the striking disadvantage of any bottom position is from fighting gravity, but strikes from the bottom can be quite effective. With knives, power is less of an issue, so these advantages/disadvantages are probably reduced somewhat.

A key concern is going to be controlling the weapon arm/hand. At grappling range, there will be no escape from the knife. Bad news.

Weapon presentation while on the ground will be difficult (depending on where you keep it.) Also, weapon security (sheath, clip, etc.) will probably be put to the test.

I wonder how the law looks at using a Dangerous/Deadly weapon to escape being mounted and essentially beaten by an unarmed attacker. Many people don't know how to escape being mounted and punched down upon, and I suppose this might (after a number of unanswered blows) justify fear for life or limb. However, even the very basics of groundfighting or Brazilian Ju-Jitsu will teach you exactly how to defeat this common attack without using any weapons.

I think if I were involved in a fight on the ground in which my opponent brought out a knife, I would be looking to control the weapon hand/arm (or better yet, control, then disable), possibly strike the eyes, throat, or groin, and most importantly break contact and get off the ground to put some distance between us, where I could more reliably transition to a more appropriate weapon for the threat (knife/handgun).

 

[Hawkins]

Originally posted by SM24
Here are some of my thoughts on it:

The main striking advantage of any top position is the additional power from going with gravity. Likewise, the striking disadvantage of any bottom position is from fighting gravity, but strikes from the bottom can be quite effective. With knives, power is less of an issue, so these advantages/disadvantages are probably reduced somewhat.

the *very* little groundfighting i've tried, i'd think it wasn't gravity that was the cause of advantage/disadvantage- the mass just isn't there for gravity to add that much force to a punch. i don't really think its *power* in that situation- its mobility. the person on top can cock back fully when throwing a punch, and secondly, when they're hit, they can move with the blow.

when you're on the bottom, you can't (or at least i couldn't) cock back effectively to throw a punch. in addition, when a strike comes down, your head/body has nowhere to move to absorb it, unless your head is raised a bit, in which case you run the risk of getting the back of your head slammed into the ground.

with a knife on the bottom, i would suppose (just thinking aloud, i have NO experience), that a reverse grip would definately be a good thing... but also, maybe a hammer grip could help if you went to reach around and thrust into their kidneys/back/side. going through the motions right now, i'm finding that a reverse-grip thust to the same area points the knife downward, angling towards my body, while the hammergrip seems to keep the blade more horizontal.

OTOH, a reverse grip seems to offer more versatility and flexibility and defense capability and i tend to prefer flexibility over any one advantage.

 

[r.j. squirrel]

Keeping in mind the caveat that this is MY experience, subject to my limitations and strengths:
I've had little success with any sort of strike that brings the blade back towards me (side, kidneys, back). Sometimes it works, but often the constant motion of the top guy makes a solid strike difficult. My blade arm has "skipped" off and I've scored more than a few own-goals
With a blade I don't think you need much power for a thrust; the blade does a lot of the work for you.
As for the legal: I'd had a previous post on "you're armed he's not" and there were some very interesting views ... one question is how does the law know you were on the bottom? Unless there's a witness and they're objective and willing to stick around it may be you with knife/him with wound. That seems like a nasty spin in the courtroom.
Thanks for raising the question, SM24 - the more I think about this the less I like it

 

[Hawkins]

good point. never actually tried what i just said i thought about.

also, i rescind my comment about gravity not helping them much- i realize they can lean in with their body-weight and cause the person on the bottom more than enough trouble for little effort.

in short, everyone just ignores what i say, and i'll shut up now

 

[r.j. squirrel]

Hawkins; don't shut up - keep thinking and talking and letting us in on it. Kicking the ball around is the only way to score. When in doubt, try something out - I use this forum in a "hey, I never thought of that - lemme go try it" way and it's proven more than useful

 

[SM24]

totally Hawkins, keep it comin

I'm definitely with you guys that the reverse grip would be the way to go on the ground; it's better at a closer range (nothing closer than grappling!), and very, very strong.

You know, the opponent having a knife for you to defend against on the ground is one thing, but utilizing your own knife to escape a ground situation is another. I would really advise anyone to seek out some groundfighting training (BJJ is a good example). If you learn even a little of this, your options on the ground will increase dramatically. It should be no major trick to escape a being mounted and punched without using any weapons (a big legal advantage.)

RJ-You may be right about you having a knife, opponent having a wound, looking really bad to police, but...(and this is total conjecture) when two people have conflicting stories about what happened, it may be the "little things" that lend one party credibility over the other. For instance, he's mounted you, is hurting you badly, and you manage to get your knife out and cut/stab him to get him off you. You tell the truth. He says you just walked up and knifed him. Why, then, did the blood get all over his head/neck/shoulders (run upward, as in him on top of you, you cut his back)? Or, why did most of his blood end up on you (he's on top, you cut his front side)? Little things, but having typed all this, I think you're right, it would just look really, really bad.

I see I'm digressing into talking about unarmed combat, but there's just one more thing I want to say about skill in fighting on the ground. Even with the popularity of the UFC and mixed martial arts events, most people just don't have a clue about what to do on the ground. In this world, knowing groundfighting is a similar advantage to being a good fighter in trapping range: you can really work *most* other people (especially untrained attackers who rely on viciousness and a willingness to commit violence to win) simply because they can't effectively defend against your attacks, or control the position.

Harness your and , so you can come out

 

[logos]

SM24,
I know that statutes vary from state to state, but I would think
that position i.e. you on the ground defending yourself would not have any bearing for the measure of response by using a knife.Self defense is self defense.JMHO.