Les Robertson

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Mike Turber

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I have decided to remove Les Robertson as moderator of this forum.

Over the last few months he has taken opportunity to add information to threads that was not necessary and basically turned threads into a personal vendetta against certain makers. A moderator is just that a moderator. A person who adds to a conversation, monitors flow, keeps subjects on topic and answers questions. He has done all of this, yet when given the opportunity he attacks certain makers and this is not what should be done. A simple comment to help a member is all that was needed and not some digging up of old dirt.

I do like having all the facts told to you so you, the member, are very well informed. Good, bad whatever as long as the stories are based on fact. The Emerson thread is a prime example of why this has happened. In the beginning of the thread he kept his cool, yet as it progressed he expanded an already heated subject and seemed to thrive on it. Mentioning letters from an attorney, calling individuals who buy from Ernie a fool, claiming possible mail fraud, and continuing to add unnecessary fuel to an already existing fire.

I really do no have to give any more reasons but I just want the members to feel I did not do this without thought.


I have made this decision after speaking to several parties. What was said does not need to be aired and this statement should not be construed as an attack against Les.

Les runs a very respectable business. I have in fact bought from him myself and can attest to that. Do not view the removal of him from this forum as some reason to not buy from him.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com




 
This is a tough decision, but I can understand your reasons and respect them. I will miss Les as the forum moderator. I enjoyed his comments and learned from them.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and reasons with us.
 
Don't get me wrong I hope he will stay on and help answer questions. That is up to him and I really do want and need his help in here. I just think the position of moderator may not be for him. He is too much like me and likes to speak his mind and sometimes that gets us into truble. He is a very valued member and I would hate to see him leave because I made a decision that might make him mad. Hopefully he is above that and agains does not take this personal.

The part that sucks is he is on vacation and this will be like a slap in the face when he gets back but I will be busy doing taxes this week and will not have the time to monitor this forum as much as I would like so I had to do it now.

I myself have had to bite my tounge a number of times in here. Man is it tough especially when you own the site and feel you could do whatever the hell you want. Of course then the site would go to heck.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com




 
Big mistake Mike, and very poorly handled. Firstly, you should have had an off-line conversation with Les. If you disagreed with the way he was handling the thread you had all the time in the world to address your areas of disagreement. Then, to dismiss him PUBLICLY when he is away compounds the ineptness of the situation. So Les took some controversial stands...he wasn't speaking for you. Fine newspapers and magazines all over the world have columnists who write controversial pieces that obviously do not express the opinions of the publishers. It is not too late to reconsider. You should own up to acting hastily and admit to having second thoughts. Then you can further open up the dialogue. The whole beauty of the Forum is that it provides a venue for an honest, open exchanges. If you are going to censor it, and only have bland yes-man moderators who tow the party line you will lose credibility and respect. I admire the fine work that the Forum does and the service that it performs. Please reconsider. You would grow in my esteem enormously if you did. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by jackstraw (edited 09 April 1999).]
 
I agree with Jackstraw its mistake.
Les always spoke from his point of view not
Bladeforum.I hope this very friendly forum dosn't turn to K...com(you not on my side go...), same of you now this .Mike You are the boss.
I will miss Les.
Slaw
 
I am always open to ideas. However I must stand by my decision for now. As I said in my post there are other reasons which I will not go into here. I will talk to Les when he gets back and see what can be done but based on the information I have my decision stands. I know I will get some flak for this but it goes with the territory.

Please understand my decision is not unjustified. Also understand I can not discuss the other issues here and will not with anyone but Les.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com




 
A few things:

Unfortunately, this wasn't a situation that occurred overnight. This has been building for a few months now, and, unfortunately has turned from being one person's opinion(s) to a personal matter where the position of authority was being abused. The only reason this has lasted as long as it has is because we wanted to try every possible course of action before resorting to this.

Both Mike and myself found this a very difficult thing to do, and it was not a decision that we made lightly and we realized that we would take some flak over it. We had to look at the big picture and try to view this from all angles.

I have personally talked to several parties on both sides of this issue. I spoke with numerous makers/ manufacturer's and asked for their experiences regarding this. I asked for advice from several forum members, and received their opinions on the issue.

Unfortunately, when all of this was added up, we were left with relatively few options. Consistently, from several sources, we were related personal experiences that added up to create a pattern of behavior. I will not go into this here, as it's not for public review.

Again, this decision was not reached overnight, and we have been monitoring this for several months. We have made the effort to work this out, however, we cannot ignore the fact that this concerns one of our *moderators*, who, in essence, represents BladeForums.com. No, we do not want "Yes" men who tow the party line and have no opinions of their own. But, when the position is abused repeatedly, we are left with relatively few options, all of which we have exhausted prior to this. Our moderators are expected to hold themselves to a higher standard. They are here to help share the information, good or bad, and help guide the threads when they turn down the path of vitriol and attacks. They are expected to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Make no mistake, Les is still a member of BladeForums.com and should be treated as such. He has a lot of very useful knowledge to share, and will not be kept from sharing it. He has not been banned, removed from our member listings, or been prevented from posting. We simply ask that you refrain from grilling him (or us) as this is *not* a trial, and he does not need to defend himself.

Our cardinal rule here is that if you are going to argue, you do it in a calm and rational manner. If you have a personal grievance with someone, keep it between you and that person, do not use the forums as a tool in your battles. If you have information to share, good or bad, do so, but make sure that you can back up your side of the story. We can not set a standard for the members, and then allow a moderator, no matter who, to ignore this site's policies and abuse his position.

I agree, it's unfortunate that Les is away on vacation at this time, however, that doesn't change the fact that this situation happened, despite all of our efforts to prevent it along the way. This situation was not being resolved favorably, and we had to fix it before it caused even more problems.

What do we do now? Good question. We are not sure who will moderate this forum, however I would hope that we all use this as a learning experience. Again, Les is still welcome here on BladeForums.com, and is encouraged to share his information, good or bad. I fervently hope that he will continue to contribute to the discussions, and he will always be welcome here, he just has to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
I cant understand giving Les the boot as moderator. He has done a good job. I guess the primary reason for Les removal is the Emerson situation. Well, what has he done wrong?? All he has done is tell the truth. I think all of the details that he posted are not in bad judgement, but shed light on how big a problem it has become.

I dont think Les should be removed as moderator, especially based on your disagreement with the way he handled a situation. So does this mean that any moderator that doesnt handle every situation in what you consider a correct manner is going to be booted?? Come on, i dont think thats what anyone wants.

The primary reason i even get on this forum is the insight to so many opinions. With the mentality used to oust Les, this broad base of opinion will be hindered.

The decision to boot Les, while he is on vacation, is in poor judgement and even poorer taste. If it was actually necassary for Les's removal, then it should have been done in a proffesional manner
(perhaps you waiting until monday and confronting Les about the situation, then if necassary assigning a new moderator with no big fanfare), NOT a big post titled LES ROBERTSON then some sorry excuse for his removal.

I do not agree with your statement that he has "attacked" makers. He simply stated truths that can be helpfull to readers of the forum.

I think we need to be far more active in weeding out and shedding light on the way some makers do business, and this move to oust Les is definitely in the wrong direction.





 
unfortunately, this all sounds too familiar, like a time not too long ago just prior to this site being founded.

but since there are reasons that the general membership will not be apprised of, I will hold my tongue.

don't want to see any ugliness ala KF going on here.

[This message has been edited by imp (edited 10 April 1999).]
 
Folks in hind site I agree we could of waited till he got back but what is done is done and we can not go back on this decision. I will not be here to discuss this issue as I will be buried in paperwork. Spark may have to field the calls and questions.

Also we could have simply had him make a post himself that he was removed but I am not sure how that would turn out and I have no idea what to expect when he returns. Either way I made the decision and will take the heat for it.

Also there is no new moderator lined up to take his position. So don't read into something that is not the case.

Again I can not and will not go into the other reasons yet I will with Les.

Also this is not an isolated incident with the Emerson thread.

You can second guess my decision but I have my side of the story too. The problem is you will not here it unless I am forced to. I don't want this to turn ugly folks. I just want this to be a well run site. I do have an idea.

I will appoint members and moderators to a board. Maybe up to 10. They can refuse if they like. When we have these situations in the future I will allow them to decide on what course of action is necessary unless their is a blatant disregard for the rules then the board is not necessary.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com




 
RM, apparently what you are missing is that this decision was not made overnight. Yes, his removal was brought to a head with the Emerson situation, however, you need to remember that this sort of situation has been occuring for months now.

Both Mike and myself have asked Les to repeatedly adhere to the same rules that apply to the members of BladeForums.com.

I made it a point, in several threads, to make it clear that personal attacks are not allowed here. At one point *I* was even told that I didn't know what I was talking about, and how dare I question his actions, he didn't need a babysitter.

This isn't about my ego. This is about a moderator who could not abide by the rules set here. The moderators are expected to set the example and help guide threads. The fact that he chose to rip into me when I asked him to cool down only shows just how personal this situation was to him and how he could not maintain his perspective. This is simply about the rules, and it's not fair to allow one person to behave this way and not allow it of others. It's hypocritical to do so.

I agree, it's unfortunate that Les was on vacation when this happened, and definately was bad timing on our part, however, the simple fact remains that he did what he did, and then left. Mike and I have been discussing this all week and we finally came to this decision tonight.

Make no mistake, this was not a planned event, we did not "wait" until he went on vacation to do this. We currently do not even have anyone lined up to replace Les, and we are in no great hurry to fill this position.

The fact remains that something had to be done, and despite email's and requests in the threads, this situation simply continued to fester. When it became clear that he could no longer maintain his objectivity as a moderator, despite our requests and warnings, we had to do something

Again, let me make this clear. We made every effort to prevent this from happening, but what is done is done.

Now let me make this also clear: Les is in no way being punished. He is still a member of BladeForums.com, and is entitled to the same courtesy and privileges as all BladeForums.com members. His links listings are not going to be removed, his profile will not be deleted, and he will still be able to post in any forum he chooses. The only thing that has changed is his moderator status, which, in the long run, isn't any big deal.

This isn't about power. This is about our moderators being held to the same standards as our members. Let's face it, it's not as much fun to be a moderator, because you have to stay objective and you can't let your personal opinions interfere with how the topics go. I'm sure you guys aren't beating down our doors looking for the extra work/ responsibilities involved in the constant moderation of a forum.

We're always willing to listen to what you have to say regarding any decisions we make, and we welcome your input, both on the forums and off of them. Please keep in mind, though, that sometimes decisions have to be made that aren't going to make everyone happy.

We are not just going to set aside the forum rules and policies so that we let any one person get special treatment. This may mean that we have to make unpopular decisions, or hard ones, but like it or not, the decisions have to be made.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Hey guys easy.
IM sure that something happened that made mike do this.
like maybe the sheriff walked in and handed them paper for libel and they had no choice
but to remove Les or fight a mega lawsuit for slander ?
even a unfounded suit has to be fought.
So I think that we should cut mike and spark a little slack on this one.
We don’t know all the facts and should reserve judgment until we do.
I like les and I like how he tells it like it is but in this world all it takes is an $#%&*^! with
a sheep skin and your tossing $20k just to keep from being buried.
And how would it be if you clicked on the link and got a 401 and this site was gone
forever?
just my thougts.
ED
PS I wrote this as spark was posting the above and obviously there is allot more to this
than we know.

[This message has been edited by Edward R Schott (edited 10 April 1999).]
 
I'm convinced you - Mike and Spark - thought this decision over very carefully. Not everything involved in this matter is known to the public, nor should it be. We have to accept your decision.

I would just like to say that I never had the impression Les didn't do a propper job as a moderator. Sure, he might have become overly involved with the Emerson topic, but I can't blame him for that. At least he had his own opinion and didn't say yes to everything. I appreciate that. Not every person can stay calm when the icons of the handmade world don't turn out to be the Gods they are supposed to be.

As a new moderator I would like to suggest Jay and Karen Sadow from Arizona custom knives. I dealt with them many times and they have always been very knowledgeable and helpfull. I think they would be a great addition to this forum.
 
as far as new moderators go, maybe we should steer clear of people that own a custom knife business. this might put them in an awkward position of having to defend someone whose knives they sell or speak badly about someone's knives they don't sell. the first thing i think about when a moderator tells me a particular knife/knifemaker is good/bad, is whether or not they sell or don't sell his knives. i know that the moderator is probably just being honest, but i still can't help but wonder whether he is being totally honest or not.

that being said, i liked having les as a moderator. he is a lot like mike and i also liked having mike as a moderator. as far as les' removal, i think that it should have waited. i know mike and spark thought carefully about it, but i think they should have thought even more carefully and maybe considered it over the next few days. it's hard not to think that mr. emerson may have flexed a little muscle and had les removed. i sure would like to know who the "parties" were that were contacted and what was said. anyway, i trust mike and spark's judgment, but it would be nice to have all the facts.

marco
 
Oh Boy,

I too will miss Les as a moderator. This has been one of my favorite forums.

Life is strange. It's unfortunate that we have to learn from our mistakes.

My concern is that this event is going to cause more damage than it already has.

Please spare us members. I don't feel the "Members" need to know any more details than we already do.

Good luck to us all.

Peace Man,

Dave
 
I agree with Jackstraw that this was handled poorly. I hope in the future that I don't disagree with the wrong person and lose my right to be on the forum.In my opinion this is a sad day for blade forum.
 
This feels like the beginning of the end of a good thing. The rationale for publicly canning Les in his absence only gets worse. This is what we are being told:
1-Les was booted because of reasons that are too sensitive to go into and
2-In spite of the fact that the controversial thread was in existence for several weeks, action had to be taken when Les was out of the country.
My remarks have nothing to do with the position that Les took on the Emerson matter. I am a big fan of Ernie and thought that the thread, allowed to work out over time succeeded in the very best way of allowing both sides of a controversial story to emerge. The Founding Fathers weren't stupid---The First Amendment gift to us all of Free Speech should not be tampered with lightly. "Reasons we can't discuss" and public humiliation in a man's absence when he is denied the opportunity to defend himself makes the alleged offenses committed by Les pale in comparison.
 
I have to agree with Jackstraw and others on this matter.Mike and Spark know of all people what can happen when things are not done up front as in the whole reason for this forum starting.You guys have a fantastic forum here which grows by leaps and bounds everyday. Two publishers of knife mags post here as well as some of the top custom makers in the country and most importantly the people who post here are doing so because of one reason the love of knives. The knowledge and comraderie on this forum is by far the best on the web.I seem to be drifting here IMHO if you guys had been agonizing over this decision for a long time then I think a few more days wouldn't have mattered to talk to Les before going public.This forum was started because of a similar rift and I would hate to see it the same happen again.
Bob
 
If I am reading this correctly, a decision was made by the BladeForums staff to remove Les Robertson as a moderator. Right? Okay, now, the decision to remove him for whatever reason(s) belongs to the people who put him in that position. Their decision is final.

This thread sounds like young kids going "but why?". I do believe we are all adults here, and the comments that Mike and Spark were wrong are ridiculous. Without opening a can of worms, we've all been in a situation that we can relate to this. So, IMHO, quit whining, and let's keep going on the subject of Custom knives.
 
Mike/Spark/Fellow Members

I agree with tobii3. Let's all stop whinning. Let the folks who operate this wonderful forum continue to do the excellent work they've been doing.

We shouldn't second guess others when we have not personally been involved or when we do not know all of the facts.

It seems reasonable to expect that moderators not attack others, while allowing regular members to express their opionions in an adult manner. I think Spark's explanation of the cardinal rule sounds extremely reasonable.

In short, let's get back to discussing knives, not people.

AJ
 
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