Les: Where does the "Embellished Tactical" leave off?

[Rick]

Les (or anyone else who would care to comment), you said something in the "New Trends in Folders" thread that got me thinking: "Embellished tactical knives are a waste of time and money. This is a stepping
stone to higher dollar Damascus knives. Three to Five years from now, you will find it difficult to resell these "embellished" tactical knives." And: "The Tactical folder and fixed blade market continue to rise." I basically agree that embellishing a "tactical" folder is like putting tits on a bull, but where does a damascus tactical leave off and high dollar damascus (HDD) begin? I know the basic definition of a tactical folder.

I've noticed that the majority of HDD knives are smallish "gentleman's" knives with blade lengths around 2 ½" to 3 ½". I personally find many of these too delicate and effete for my tastes. I prefer a folder that fills my hand and has a "weapon's mystique" about it, much as a highly polished revolver with ivory grips was regarded in the old west. If you take a tactical knife and remove the pocket clip, polish everything that was bead blasted, and replace the G10 with fossil ivory, is it still a tactical?

For example, I recently started a thread in this forum about a Harkins auto. IMO, this knife is nether an embellished tactical or a typical HDD. It's a fairly large, heavy, stylized folder with some of that "weapon's mystique" I refer to. Could this and others like it be the harbingers of a new category and perhaps a new trend as well?

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Rick,

I think this is fairly simple to recognize. If you take a knife that started life as a tactical/utility knife. Then just add Damascus, anodizing and/or pearl or ivory to it.

You have nothing but an embellished tactical knife.

You are correct that most of the Damascus folders I am talking about are of the "Gentlemen's" variety. Generally, they are not the size nor design of a tac/utility knife.

Usually 3" (+/- 1/4"), just a guideline not a hard and fast rule.

Most of these will feature extra work and are not laser/wire/EDM cut. Lots of hand work on these.

As for Jeff, I have owned several of his knives. He makes a great knife. Some of his Auto's started life as a tactical custom auto, before there really was such a thing. He and Bill Wolf (another excellent maker) made/make a knife similar to each other in exterior dimensions.

You can tell these knives by the allen head or hex head screws used to but them together.

I bought one of Harkins Damascus "trap door" auto's earlier this year. Incredible work. He may be the exception to the embellishment rule.

This knife had a tactical profile, but he had done so much extra work on it, particularly the "trap door" that it could no longer be called just an "embellished" tactical.

He had made the leap on that particular style of knife.

The retail price of this knife was $2,500.00.

At the Guild Show I bought the "show special" from Allen Elishewitz. Damascus blade, front and rear bolster, carbon fiber scales inliad with titanium. Also the knife had mother of pearl cabachon's inlaid in rear bolster on each side.

This knife is not a standard knife that Allen makes. But could be considered by some to be an embellished tactical. Had he put pearl or ivory this would have not come into consideration.

I bought this knife and ordered 3 more. There are exceptions to every rule.

Hope this didnt add to the confusion.



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

[Rick]

Les, perhaps you can help me reconcile an apparent contradiction. I'm only going on about this 'cause I value your opinion and wish to understand it further.

It appears that the "tactical" folder will be with us for some time yet. Arguably, the designs continue to improve and the demand seems to be increasing. Most of the knife rags suggest that the embellished tactical is the hot trend. I personally think that many of the knife nuts out there eventually outgrow the mediocre quality of production knives and move up into tactical handmades. From there, the next logical step is the embellished tactical (as opposed to a 2 ¾" gent's knife for $1500+/-).

You commented that many collectors have a hard time going over around $800 for a knife. That leaves them in the target zone for the embellished tactical.

Here's part I don't get: You seem to believe that the embellished tactical genera is a waste of time and money, and that in a few years, these knives will be hard to move. What is suddenly going to kill the market for a comparatively affordable style of folder that appears to be the current (or upcoming) hot trend?

I agree that when you take a tool and embellish it, the results are frequently questionable; imagine a damascus crescent wrench! But more often then not, handmade tactical folders are regarded as "art objects," as opposed to tools, so perhaps embellishing them isn't as inappropriate as it might seem. Nifrand here sure seems to like em.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Rick,

Call me old school. I like tactical folders to look and feel like tactical folders.

As for the magazines seeing a new "trend", remember, these magazines are 6-9 months behind what is really happening in custom knives.

I understand why makers want to embellish the knife and why customers want them.

However, unlike the makers who are the primary market, I, and dealers like me are the secondary market. When I speak or write of thigs I see and/or recommend. This is not a wild guess on my part. These are the trends I see. This is based not only on what I sell, but what I see others trying to sell and the prices they can get for their knife.

Take for instance the Rolex Submariner. The one you see most often is the Stainless Steel with the black face. Now Rolex offers this in two tone band and bezel, several face colors and in gold. If you check with jewlers which one they sell the most of you will find that it is 100 to 1 the stainless sub compared to the others.

The reasons are simple:

You do not get a better product for the additional cost.

For the additional cost you could move up to the Daytona (not a stainless Daytona, they are too hard to get).

Also, the stainless Submariner is enough of a statement all by it's self.

The best looking women I know are the ones who wear little or no makeup and are still beautiful.


When I judge at shows, I give the maker no credit for embellishment. Gold inlay, french gray engraving, scrimshaw, etc. are only extra. If the knife is not executed properly, it is nothing buy an expensive failure.

There are a lot very good Damascus folders made for $800 and under. These are the bargin. These makers work will continue to go up in value as long as the work improves.

In the next 2 years you will see tactical folders go up in price, some to almost $600.00. This will be a direct result of the materials used.

As people get used to paying these prices. The leap to Damsacus "gent's" folders at $800 will not be that great of a leap.

Damscus will not go up in price. If anything it will continue to come down. However, initially, the new "super steel" prices will be greater than the current steel prices.

You also need to understand the difference in construction techniques. The embellished tac folders are still done for the most part with laser/EDM/CNC.

Where as the more expensive Damascus folders, employ none of that technology. As they, for the most part, are made one at a time instead of in "batches", there is actually more labor involoved in these knives.

Another factor will come into play as well. Many of these knives will feature sole authorship. That is to say, even the steel will be made by the maker.

Do any of us over 30 drive the same car we did when we were 16. The answer is no.

Why? Several reasons.

We now have a better job that allows us to have a nicer vehicle.

We now know more about what is and what is not a good vehicle.

We no longer feel the need to jump in and get something just to impress our friends.

There is pride in ownership of a nice vehicle.

Lastly, we consider the resale value of the vehicle we drive.

I have a bad habit of always thinking of a knife resale value. This is due in large part to the 50 calls a week I get of people wanting to sell their knives. Usually, to raise some money for the next knife. I proably will buy less than 5 of those knives.

Rick, the next time you buy a knife from a dealer, ask them if they will take the knife back in trade for a more expensive knife down the road. An in trade give you the full value of what you paid for the knife.

It's kind of a trick question. I am the only custom knife dealer I know of who does this and has done this for the last 5 years. Many of the listers on this forum will vouch for this.

Can you guess why I am the only one?

Hope this clears up some of the confusion.

Let me know if you have any other questions.



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 

[Knife Outlet]

Here's a tactical design from Elishewitz. It's fairly straightforward except for the Mokume bolsters and bright blue anodizing on the liners. Otherwise it's an ATS-34 blade with carbon fiber scales. Does the Mokume make this knife overly embellished and does it hurt the knife's future resale value?

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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com

 

[Rick]

Fred, if I understand the term, a tactical that gets any kind of makeover is now considered embellished. Personally, I like your knife much better then the standard version. Okay, so mokume isn't as strong as titanium. The satin blade finish might reflect light where a BB finish wouldn't. So? Les certainly knows his stuff, but I still find it hard to understand why your knife might not hold its value compared to a plain tactical version. Perhaps he's only referring to the "overly" embellished tacticals with damascus blades and natural handle materials.

Les, Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. You really made a good point when you reminded me about the difference in construction techniques between a tactical and a high dollar damascus. I still think that a lot of the guys who are into tactical knives and want something better are not going to move up to a fragile little presentation folder. They, like me, may want something substantial with better workmanship and materials that still feels like a "real" knife, as opposed to a piece of fine jewelry. That's why I bought the Harkins trapdoor. It weighs nearly half a pound and looks wicked and streamlined. That and a D/A auto by Dake are the only none-tactical handmades I have that don't feel as though they're made of spun sugar.

 

[Strider]

I think that something being overlooked here regarding fancy or embellished tacticals is just who is making them in regards to there future value. Certain established makers knives will always retain or go up in value as opposed to a new maker who puts $1000 worth of ivory and jewels and what have you on there plain jane tactical and then wonders why no one is beating down the door to purchase it. There will always be collectors who will pay top dollar for certain makers interpertations of an embellished tactical just because they happen to collect these makers works. I think Les is correct in most of what he says.I like the car analogy. How many people here have seen 1973 Toyotas with fancy paint and dark windows and bras and spoilers and the list goes on.How many here would buy a car like that? Not to many I'm sure. With so many old and new makers out there the possibilities are almost endless as far as knife design goes. Another big if is what is going to be popular a year from now.Knives are like anything else new models, new materials,new technology.the thing is you don't want to be stuck with a old Datsun you paid a small fortune for and no one wants it now.
Bob

 

[Knife Outlet]

Basically, I fashions in knives change just like fashions in everything else. I think you'd have had a tough time selling anybody a black handled knife with a black coated, partially serrated blade 20 years ago. Who's to say what the fashions will be 20 years from now?

I have a theory that the more "tactical" knives look, the faster government will work toward banning them. The industry's natural reaction could be to "embellish" them so they look like oversized gentlemen's knives. That could force a change in fashion.

It's possible embellished tacticals could be all the rage in the future. Actually, I think it's probable.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com