Lets talk steel...

F

Furync

Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
161
Hello everyone,

I very recently received my first Rosarms knife, the Companion 2. All I can say is that I love this knife. I am curious to know exactly what type of steel the blade is made from. I looked at other threads and didn't find the info I was looking for.

Here is what information I got from your website:
Knives' blades are made of the famous Zlatoust forged and hardened stainless steel 110x18M and 40x10C-2M (relatives to steel BG-42 and 440C) and Damascus. Hardness of this steel is >58 Rockwell.
Click to expand...

Sounds simple enough, 110x18M is comparable to BG-42, 40x10C-2M is comparable to 440C. Or maybe I'm not reading it right? Are all steels hardened to >58 Rockwell or just the Damascus?

I have the Companion 2, I'd like to know which steel it is made from since it's not marked on the blade itself... Is there an easy way of telling? Is there a list of models with types of steel used? Or is the 110x18M only used for the "art" knives?

I'm just curious, I really love my new knife and I wish I could explain it's material better when I show it off... :o:p

Thank you!
 
It is 110x18 which seems to be the high quality knife steel used in the Zatloust armory.
I know it does have some titanium in it which is cool and makes sense because Russia has most of the worlds titanium reserves and has used it for a long time.
I need to have another look at the exact specs for 110x18 which i think are posted on the Rosarms site(a very good sign) but i would guess it is similar to 440C but with the ti and maybe some more or different alloys.

One thing i really like about the Rosarms knives is the nice shiny finish. That is one of the reasons i suspect a high chromium count like 440C because that would also help with a nice finish.

58 is about perfect for most knives. Some knives that are smaller and used for wood carving and need very very good edge retention can have a Rockwell as high as 61 but
they end up brittle and very hard to sharpen. Most cheaper chinese knives are about a
54-55 while good knives are mostly 56 to 58.

Your companion2 has a slight hollow grind and a flat "V" edge. The hollow grind is the sharpest and is used on straight razors but is also the weakest grind. Since the C2 is well designed and of good steel you should not have to worry about breaking it. Even big Rosarms knives like the SN Bayonet have a slight hollow grind. Both SN Bayonets i have had ,shaved hair right out of the box.
 
Furync said:
Hello everyone,

I
Sounds simple enough, 110x18M is comparable to BG-42, 40x10C-2M is comparable to 440C. Or maybe I'm not reading it right? Are all steels hardened to >58 Rockwell or just the Damascus?
Click to expand...

...Knives' blades are made of the famous Zlatoust forged and hardened stainless steel 110x18M and 40x10C-2M (relatives to steel BG-42 and 440C) and Damascus. Hardness of this steel is >58 Rockwell...

Steel 110x18 is relative to BG-42, Steel 40x10C-2M is more relative to 440C.

On USA market We have only knives made of 110x18.

40x10C is used for some of our decorated gift knives.

Companion you got is made of 110x18 and Rockwell is min 58 (in my experience Rockwell can vary 58-59 ).
Please do not use regular stone to sharpen it. Use Diamond stones... Pocket size plate (made in USA, TX) I have for sale on our website - http://www.rosarmsusa.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=124


Thank you!
 
kancler said:
...Knives' blades are made of the famous Zlatoust forged and hardened stainless steel 110x18M and 40x10C-2M (relatives to steel BG-42 and 440C) and Damascus. Hardness of this steel is >58 Rockwell...

Steel 110x18 is relative to BG-42, Steel 40x10C-2M is more relative to 440C.

On USA market We have only knives made of 110x18.

40x10C is used for some of our decorated gift knives.

Companion you got is made of 110x18 and Rockwell is min 58 (in my experience Rockwell can vary 58-59 ).
Please do not use regular stone to sharpen it. Use Diamond stones... Pocket size plate (made in USA, TX) I have for sale on our website - http://www.rosarmsusa.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=124


Thank you!
Click to expand...

Thank you for the answers, I do have more questions though :)

Is there a set angle that you cut the edges at? Does that vary on every model?

I'm also curious as to why not use regular stones to sharpen it? What is the advantage of using Diamond stones? Or what is the reason to NOT use regular stones?

The diamond stone you linked are 300/600 grit, is that not a bit rough? I was considering buying 800/4000 grit Japanese water stones... what is your input on this?

I'm just trying to find the best possible way to care for my C2 :)
Thanks again! :)
 
kancler said:
...Knives' blades are made of the famous Zlatoust forged and hardened stainless steel 110x18M and 40x10C-2M (relatives to steel BG-42 and 440C) and Damascus. Hardness of this steel is >58 Rockwell...

Steel 110x18 is relative to BG-42, Steel 40x10C-2M is more relative to 440C.

On USA market We have only knives made of 110x18.

40x10C is used for some of our decorated gift knives.

Companion you got is made of 110x18 and Rockwell is min 58 (in my experience Rockwell can vary 58-59 ).
Please do not use regular stone to sharpen it. Use Diamond stones... Pocket size plate (made in USA, TX) I have for sale on our website - http://www.rosarmsusa.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=124


Thank you!
Click to expand...

Sold!
 
Furync said:
Thank you for the answers, I do have more questions though :)

Is there a set angle that you cut the edges at? Does that vary on every model?

I'm also curious as to why not use regular stones to sharpen it? What is the advantage of using Diamond stones? Or what is the reason to NOT use regular stones?

The diamond stone you linked are 300/600 grit, is that not a bit rough? I was considering buying 800/4000 grit Japanese water stones... what is your input on this?

I'm just trying to find the best possible way to care for my C2 :)
Thanks again! :)
Click to expand...

1. Angle - all knives are hand made and angle can vary a little... I know our makers are trying to sharpen knives to cut hard materials and to hold edge very well at the same time. I will ask for angles and let you know.

2. Diamonds vs. regular stones.
​
Any blade harder then 57 Rc and made of stainless steel will be hard to sharpen by regular sharpening stone. It just will not do job very well. But don't get me wrong - IT IS possible if you have VERY good sharpening skills (professional)
Diamonds are MUCH MUCH easier to use for regular everyday user. Plus now there so many different sizes and grids on market! In my experience, using sharpening stone will round the edge of the knife (AGAIN - we are talking about HARD stainless blades 57Rc or more!) . I don't know how to explain why ... I will start new post and ask other guys opinion. But I'm sure, regular stone works fine on high carbon steel and kitchen knives.

Please try Japanese water stone and let us know how it works. I know you must use water or some kind of liquid during sharpening. I think it will work, I was talking about regular cheap sharpening stones from hardware store :)

3. 300/600 Grid works very well. I have one and used it a few times.

So please try water stone and let us know...
thank you.
 
...one more thing

I did try Ceramic sharpeners. For example, Tr-iangle from Spyderco - it also work fine.
 
The chemical components of 110x18M stainless steel

carbon C 1.1-1.2%
manganese Mn 0.5-0.1%
chromium Ch 16.5-18.0%
molybdenum Mo >3%
titanium Ti 0.2%
nikel Ni 0.5%
cooper Cu 0.3%

I lifted this from the Rosarms site. The truth is out there!
 
High carbon and high chromium and some nice alloys makes for a pretty cool steel.
No wonder there is such a nice finish with all that ch ,nikel and Ti!
 
This steel has to be experienced to be truly appreciated, like I said before....I find that the Spyderco Triangle gives the most durable edge and longest lasting, but I also free hand sharpen often at a lesser angle with diamond stones like Kancler and it can be hard to tell the difference. This steel will take almost any angle you want and hold it.:thumbup:
 
Irish Sentry said:
This steel has to be experienced to be truly appreciated, like I said before....I find that the Spyderco Triangle gives the most durable edge and longest lasting, but I also free hand sharpen often at a lesser angle with diamond stones like Kancler and it can be hard to tell the difference. This steel will take almost any angle you want and hold it.:thumbup:
Click to expand...


I have a few RosArms and everything he states is truth. RosArms knives are Diamonds in the rough. Great blades and the handles are the best in the business.
 
Those are good things to know. My next knife is going to be the rosarms baionet
http://www.rosarmsusa.com/stik.htm but I don't know if it is made of 110x18 or 40x10-c2m, if someone can give more information about what kind of steel is used in the blade of that knife, I will appreciate it.

thanks in advance

best regards

georges
 
so far all knives IMPORTED to USA before April 2009 are made of 110x18 steel.
I think from May-June 2009 they will use different steel - equivalent to 154CM.

But no confirmation yet...
 
Unsub said:
58 is about perfect for most knives. Some knives that are smaller and used for wood carving and need very very good edge retention can have a Rockwell as high as 61 but they end up brittle and very hard to sharpen.
Click to expand...
I disagree. For one that is very generic statement. 58HRC may be perfect for certain steel/knife combo but to say it's perfect for most knives, w/o specifying the steel, that's an overstatement at least.

Second, I have CPM-10V blade at 64HRC, CPM-125V blade at 65HRC, ZDP-189 knives, gyuto at 64-66HRC and small folder at 67HRC, several other Japanese kitchen knives from 62 to 65HRC+. None of those have problems with brittleness, when used for whatever they were designed for.
And I do grind quite thin edges on those. None of the knives listed has an edge above 30deg. included and most of them are around 20deg, others are from 10 deg. to 16-18 deg. included angle.

Small knives, for light/medium cutting could clearly benefit from higher hardness.

Sharpening those isn't that much of a problem once you have initial bevel.
 
according to the steel chart on AG Russell website:

http://www.agrussell.com/Steel_Guide/a/73/

CPM-125V has only 14% Cr and recommended hardness - 58-61

Are u sure u have one hardened to 65 Hrc??? It is almost impossible...

Agree, for special purposes you can use hard knives >65. But for universal knife (let say for camping/hunting purposes) it is not good Idea... unless you like knives with broken tips :)
 
I can't find Crucible documentation at the moment, but what Russel has is "typical hardness" and I am not sure where does the 58-61 comes from. never seen neither CPM-10V blade nor CPM-125V blade hardened that low.
Phil Wilson hardens those to 64-65HRC Range, Holms and Farid do that as well.
2 ZDP-189 blades I have are 66-67HRC.

Besides chromium those steels have very high Carbon content.

I guess it depends what you define as special purpose. To me the knife that is mainly for light cutting should be as hard as it can get.

I've skinned and dressed a ~80lbs boar with that 65HRC CPM-125V. Didn't cut bones or joints with it, but obviously hit the bone few times during the process. Not a single chip on the edge( ~15 deg. per side).

If I plan on prying and chopping it's a different matter, yes.
 
Thank you for interesting info. If you will have a chance to test them more let us know.
 
This is straight from the Crucible Brochure(linked below) I was looking for this morning.

CPM 10V - 9.75% vanadium cold work tool steel capable of attaining 63-65 HRC.

CPM® S125V® - capable of attaining 62-64 HRC and typically applied at this same hardness.


As usual those recommendations from Crucible are rather conservative. So, 1-2 PT over the recommended hardness is usually no problem for light cutters.

From my experience I can add that those two (10V and S125V) can take quite a punishment with 12-15 deg angles per side. Haven't tried them with thicker edges, but at those angles they haven't chipped so far.

Crucible Brochure
 
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