Locking versus not [a Stupid Newbie Question (tm)]

P

pdmoderator

Joined
Mar 23, 2002
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Hi, all,

Let's assume that you have two folders (approximately the size and shape of an Emerson Commander, for purposes of discussion :D), identical in all respects except that one that locks and the other doesn't.

Neglecting mayhem, can anyone tell me some jobs that the locking version is good for that the non-locking one isn't?

Thanx,
- pdmoderator
 
Originally posted by pdmoderator


can anyone tell me some jobs that the locking version is good for that the non-locking one isn't?
Click to expand...

Any job that requires that you don't accidently cut your fingers off. This is a KNIFE, for God's sake. :rolleyes:
 
So Swiss army knives will cut your fingers off? :rolleyes:

Look, let me put it bluntly. Suppose you were on trial. How would you justify having the thing as opposed to a Swiss army knife?

- pdmoderator
 
Slipjoint pocket knives are very popular. I've used them for many years and they are fine for all normal cutting tasks. That, of course, requires you to not abuse or use unusual angles or forces. Not really a problem.

Obviously any stabbing-type use has to be done with care, but for most ordinary utility use, stabbing is unusual in my experience or at least can be done safely with a slip-joint. For instance, if you are cutting a hole in cardboard, you have to stab the blade through, but this can be done with some forward pressure that will keep force on the blade in the opening direction.

On the other hand...
If you want to have the option to abuse your knife, a lock is needed. For potential emergency or survival situations where you might use an uncotrolled stabbing force (to break a window or dig a hole maybe) or use the knife with a club to split wood or make a difficult cut, the added security of the lock will protect you. Also, if you are putting all your strength behind a cut and the knife slips and hits something else, you could concievably put closing force on the blade.

Also, "neglecting mayhem," there might be some situations requiring "tactical" use against an animal. If the animal were attacking or were needed for food, for instance. Or you need to use the knife as a spear-head. The advantage of a lock in this case is obvious.


I think it boils down to whether the knife is intended solely for ordinary use or if you want to keep the option open for extraordinary use. I have one of each in my pockets.
 
"suppose you were on trial"


That depends on what you are on trial for.

If you killed someone with the knife, you would have to argue that the use of deadly force was justified under the self-defense definition in the applicable legal code. The knife lock should be irrelevant.

If you are on trial for carrying a concealed weapon, you would have to go to the legal code's definition of a dangerous weapon. Most jurisdictions in the US don't specifically prohibit locking blades, so the lock should be irrelevant in that case, too. Hopefully you considered the legal code when you chose your knife and decided how to carry it. If you were not within the law, arguing about the lock won't help you.

Some weapons laws are ambiguous and that leaves you at risk when you carry an obviously tactical folder. I personally wouldn't carry an obviously "tactical" folder for that reason. I choose folders that look like ordinary pocket tools since that's what they are to me and that's how I want to be judged if it comes to that.

What's the circumstance?
 
Lurker, thanks for your help.

If you killed someone with the knife, you would have to argue that the use of deadly force was justified under the self-defense definition in the applicable legal code. The knife lock should be irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, that's only true in logical minds. Imagine what a prosecutor (or a plaintiff's attorney in a lawsuit) could do with a jury whose members had never been subjected to life-threatening attack, and a defendant who carried a big ugly-looking knife that had no obvious useful purpose other than as a weapon.

So, what do you carry?

- pdmoderator.
 
"Imagine what a prosecutor (or a plaintiff's attorney...."

Exactly. You don't want to be that defendant. You want witnesses that will swear that you were justifiably and innocently in fear for your life and that you tried everything in your power to avoid and escape from the situation. And you don't want your wicked ninja blade being dangled in front of the jury.

I carry a Camillus EDC. A gentleman's folder would be even better, but the EDC is my idea of a good compromise between friendly looks, good capability and a good value.

[edit]
Of course, the fact that a person would carry a "weapon" for self-protection shouldn't rule out the self-protection legal defense. There are many people who have permits to carry concealed handguns and presumably they could protect themselves and still beat a murder charge.

By the way, where are my manners? Welcome to the forum.
 
When I was about 14 or 15, I was using a Boy Scout knife to whittle. While using the point to make a small gouge, not extreme pressure, the blade closed, on my index finger. All it took was the slightest off-center pressure or tilting of the handle. Just this little old penknife, but it cut pretty deep. (Had to miss the canoe trip that week because ot the stitches - pisses me off to this day!) Luckily nothing was permanently damaged, but I still have a visible reminder to this day of why my little old wimpy round-the-office EDC is a Gerber LST, which locks, instead of a penknife. (Well, OK, it's a better knife anyway, but it would be a LB regardless.)

For 30 years, I automatically look for lockers, and in fact, have done the same for my son. He got a small (maybe 2" blade) lockback for his first knife, when he was in scouts. Today, if I hand the LST to anyone in the office, for any task, they never wince, get big eyes, or pull back. It's just a light little pocket knife, they can open it fine, and sometimes they even notice that it locks, and comment that it's a good idea for safety. I would not buy a non-locking knife for any cutting task any more. I do carry a Swiss army type while camping or hiking, but only tossed in the bottom of the pack for the other random tools, not for cutting. Carry a serrated Spyderco Snap-it (the hook is made in heaven for camping/hiking carry) for any rope/canvas type tasks, and the LST for everything else (until I can rationalize why I need a Native instead, which would gain me all of about 1/2" longer blade, but still....)
 
I've closed several knives on my fingers thru the years. Never doing anything abusive, I just get absent minded. I try to use a locking blade whenever I am doing any extended cutting chores.

If I'm just going to carry one around in my pocket for those odd 2 second jobs that come up, a slipjoint is just fine. But if I load one up thinking I'm going to use it quite a bit, it's a locker.
 
Originally posted by pdmoderator
Suppose you were on trial. How would you justify having the thing as opposed to a Swiss army knife?
Click to expand...

My choice of locking or non-locking has NOTHING to do with whether or not I am planning on stabbing someone. I prefer a locking folder over a non-locking for my OWN safety.

This sounds like the whole self-defense gun issue all over again. It is not the tool that is the issue (or any modifications done to it) in any legitimate self defense use - although opposing council will paint you as a psychotic serial killer because you have a target-weight trigger on your gun, or you use hollow point ammo. If you are justified in using deadly force, then the tool becomes irrelevant (provided it is legally owned, etc.).
 
Pdmoderator, what knife has no obvious purpose besides a weapon. I have seen lots of fighting knives. Never seen one that could not obviously be used for other purposes. You could use a shiv, and I could see that arguement, but a shiv is not a knife. Bayonettes are not knives either. Could you please direct us towards said knife that has no obviously useful purpose besides being a weapon?
 
If this was simply a question about the utility of a locked knife versus an unlocked, then I think you have already agreed the answer must be that either will do exactly the same jobs (assuming similar knives of course) except that the locked knife will be less likely to ever close accidentally. Thus the answer is that any job putting the blade at risk of closing is better done with a locked blade than a non-locked blade, and safety is an easily supported position. Just look at Exhibit 1, the scar on my finger.

Now, pd, if you are trying to rationalize away the difference between a 4" plastic handle swiss army knife and a 9" serrated black-bladed (because you're less likely to be seen sneaking around in the dark in your ninja outfit & blackface)knife advertised as "tactical" knife and promoted by its maker as follows:

"The Commander knife - battle tested and proven - incorporates some of the most advanced ergonomics ever featured on a folding knife. The knife, already in use with elite armed forces, European Military strike teams and NATO Counter-Terrorist units throughout the world was chosen by the U.S. Navy SEAL teams for issue to special units within the Naval Special Forces Units."

well, that ain't aimed at slicing cardboard, now, let's be realistic. If you want to justify your choice of a bigger stronger uglier knife generally sold specifically for defense purposes, based on what you are using it for, then you better be hacking big branches off tree limbs before they go into a shredder, or skinning wild hogs that have invaded your farm.

So if you're going to buy a lock-back similar in size & functionality to a Swiss army knife, you don't have to worry about that mad prosecutor or that jury of teachers & librarians.

If you just want to buy a Commander because they are sturdy, well-made tools, that you appreciate, then do so, and just carry them around when you expect to need them as a tool.

If you are worried about ever having to use them in self-defense, then buy them with that in mind, and hope that if ever needed, you will have the ability to distinguish between a minor threat of some kind to which you over-react with unjustifiable force, and a serious threat to your life to which you respond with justifiable reactions. In that case, the small non-locking folder won't do the job you expect your tool to be able to do, so it would be the wrong purchase in teh first place. Because it will come down to what OTHER people, specifically 12 other people, think of your use of the knife, not what YOU think of it, or what the rest of the Bladeforum readers think of it, that matters.
 
Your original question "What can a locking folder do that a non-locking one can not" (I'm paraphrasing) is easy to answer... Basically <i>anything and everything</i> that requires something more than straight down pressure applied perpendicular to the edge and from edge toward spine. Any kind of stabbing (for example digging a channel in wood, or creating a hole for a bow drill) is an obvious example.

Steven Dick of Tac Knives came up with a good one a couple of issues back. He had to scrape mud and ice off the bottom of his cross country skiis. You don't want to do that with the edge, so he scraped with the SPINE of the knife. Good thing he had a locking folder and one with a good lock!
 
another thing might be the handle, a swiss army knife has a much smaller handle which won't provide a very good grip, also the blade is much smaller on most swiss army knives. if you were in stuck in a burning car with a jammed seat belt good luck trying to cut your way out with a swiss army classic... on the other hand if you had say a REKAT sifu you can cut you way out and still have time to have a smoke before you had to run out...
 
everybody that carried knives (amazing how many ranchers/farmers don't carry anything) the 3 bladed stockman - probable a Case or Shrade or Buck was THE knife. I carried a Buck Stockman for many years. Except at branding (castration) I now carry only lockbacks. I have had a Stockman blade close on my fingers more than once and it seems that the more tired I am and the rougher I use the knife, the more apt it is to occur. I just bought a Spyderco (Goddard design) which will be my "rough-use" knife when I'm working outside. Yes, I get "funny looks" from the neighbors if they see me using it.
 
Everyone is so worried about cutting them selves while the knife accidentally closes, what about accidentally cutting your self while opening. I don't think a lock makes that much difference, so long as you use the knife within it's accepyable limits. You don't want to stab a car door with a pen knife, but in the same vane you don't want to peel an apple with a Bowie. The right tool for the right job.
 
Originally posted by pdmoderator
Look, let me put it bluntly. Suppose you were on trial. How would you justify having the thing as opposed to a Swiss army knife?
Click to expand...
If a prosecutor/plantiff lawyer grill you for that, it's like grilling a armor car guard firing a gun with a pinned down grip safety at an armed robbery (of course robbery in progress). In this case, whether you have it or not, it is actually irrevelent. If you killed a person , using a slipjoint won't make you look any better than using a knife that has a lock.
 
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