Looking for a specific sword

timcsaw

timcsaw

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
21,442
Hello all... In the hopes that some of you may be sword collectors, I will ask... Do any of you have my Great, Great, Grandfathers sword that he carried in the Civil War? If so... I want it back!:D

Seriously... My GG Grandfather was Maj. William Child, Surgeon of the 5th NH regiment and our family has lost track of his sword. I've been looking for it for years. Grandfather Child was given a sword on the battle field by a Confederate officer who was dieing, and we do have that one, but Dr. Child passed his own sword to his "first named grandson". We have tried in vain to trace the sword through our family but have hit dead end, after dead end.

For those of you who may not know about it, there is a web site called 'oldswords.com' that is a great resource for swords of all kinds. I've had no luck there either... yet;) .

If anyone happens to "stumble" across Dr. Child's sword, please, PLEASE let me know.

We suspect that his sword should be of the style shown in this picture... A medical officers sword. Thanks much all.

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Triton said:
Wow, now that's a specific, specific sword!
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It gets worse... we don't know for sure if the specific, specific sword we are looking for is marked with his name or initials to identify it as his (we suspect it's marked but ??).:eek:
 
These medical officer swords are not so unusual and generally not identified to the owner unless there was a presentation or well kept records of provenance.

Where did you retrieve the image attached and what information do you have indicating this was the model of sword he carried? Without the specifics of what type of sword he carried and a presentation or even an invoice of when he purchased the sword, everything else will be a large dose of speculation.

Here is a good page for the medical notes and some history
http://www.braceface.com/medical/

While the 1840 regulation pattern you show for medical staff, there were no contracts for these and the pattern endured through the 19th century. If you have not yet, take a deep breath and post some more provenance information. Are their images or a diary showing or relating his sword? Again and while there was a regulation pattern, it eally is your families chore to find the tidbits of biographical information. Was he active in the military before the war? Basic bio information? Are you asking us at large to find these bits for you or do you have information in hand?

More useful and popular swords were not uncommon and few really bothered to be wearing a sword during a battle. Somewhere on the link above is a good shot of a post battle operation showing an older surgeon wearing a sword not like this one at all.

The 1840 pattern as presentations were popular after the fact more so than what a surgeon carried during the ACW. Again, more homework about what he cariied, when and where he acquired said sword. Stuff like that.

Best of luck but the clues offered so far might be better research you and family can come up with. Or Google. I'll keep an eye out for the name and maybe poke around but a basic bio would be handy to offer any watching.

Selling extant information?
ISBN: 1-882190-63-7

Cheers

GC
 
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About five years ago, on another forum, one of the members had been on a very similar quest to find his great great grandfather's civil war sword. The man had been a general during the war. The family knew that it had existed, but his general's effects had been sold off earlier by a distant branch of the family. So he is looking through the usual auction house catalogs and he finds the sword that once belonged to his relative, and along with it were several of his other swords, personal papers, decorations, uniforms, and other effects. Some collector had purchased the whole collection and it had manage to stay together all of this time.

It can happen, but it is exceedingly unlikely; the more so if you unclear about the objects you are looking for.

n2s
 
horseclover said:
These medical officer swords are not so unusual and generally not identified to the owner unless there was a presentation or well kept records of provenance.

Where did you retrieve the image attached and what information do you have indicating this was the model of sword he carried? Without the specifics of what type of sword he carried and a presentation or even an invoice of when he purchased the sword, everything else will be a large dose of speculation.

Here is a good page for the medical notes and some history
http://www.braceface.com/medical/

While the 1840 regulation pattern you show for medical staff, there were no contracts for these and the pattern endured through the 19th century. If you have not yet, take a deep breath and post some more provenance information. Are their images or a diary showing or relating his sword? Again and while there was a regulation pattern, it eally is your families chore to find the tidbits of biographical information. Was he active in the military before the war? Basic bio information? Are you asking us at large to find these bits for you or do you have information in hand?

More useful and popular swords were not uncommon and few really bothered to be wearing a sword during a battle. Somewhere on the link above is a good shot of a post battle operation showing an older surgeon wearing a sword not like this one at all.

The 1840 pattern as presentations were popular after the fact more so than what a surgeon carried during the ACW. Again, more homework about what he cariied, when and where he acquired said sword. Stuff like that.

Best of luck but the clues offered so far might be better research you and family can come up with. Or Google. I'll keep an eye out for the name and maybe poke around but a basic bio would be handy to offer any watching.

Cheers

GC
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Thanks GC, we have a ton of the information you ask about, but I'll have to refresh my memory on some of the specifics. I'll gather some more information and post it tomorrow or the next day.

You do hit on one of the real difficulties I've run into in my search... We have no actual pictures of him with his sword, so it is only our assumption that it is an 1840 style Medical Officers sword. I should be able to find out where/when he bought it as he makes a cursory mention of it in his letters. I will also see if I can narrow down where, approximately, we think the sword went when he passed it to his "first named grandson".

My own grandmother remembers both swords (the CSA and his own sword) hanging over the fireplace in their home when she was young. To my knowledge though, no one ever described what the sword even looked like.

Having looked for this for years and years, I may have to resign myself to the fact that we will never recover/find his actual sword. In that case, I will probably buy a replica to put with the original CSA sword that we do have. I hate to do that though... I really hope to find his actual sword.

Thanks again. I'll gather what I can and get the info posted in the next couple of days.

This is the hilt of the CSA sword that he was given by the Confederate officer which we have;

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With the CSA open guard cutout like this one;

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Here is another board you may want to register for in doing more background work for William Child and the 5th.

http://civilwartalk.com/

They have been great in responses to my own researches there and they may well have more anecdotal notes from others present in that regiment. That the letters from him to his wife are in hand and in fact published, more period association would be finding others researching the regiment at large and able to provide more background. Child was a young man during the war and the probability of it being an 1840 medical staff sword favorable, it would be a shame to assume it was if there was a different sword known to have been his.

My own paternal gg grandfather left Missouri for Oregon to teach because of his neutral and more federalist feelings (inlaws ready to seem him shot). While his immediate brothers and some cousins were southern soldiers, others in the same families marched with Sherman to Atlanta and were involved in other campaigns.

Cheers

GC
 
This was the picture I was looking for and the reference to alternate swords during the American Civil War. I had posted this up previously on another board some time ago.

Glen C. said:
Here is the image I was remembering but not found in the context I remembered previously finding it. Surgeon Gilbert, Ft. Monroe, 1861. It looks like either an eagle or horsehead.
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This is from a stereo card over on a site called brace face and may be discussed there elsewhere or another medical antiques site I have bookmarked. I do know the other context I have seen it was discussing the sword and not the operation.

Cheers

Hotspur; it may even have been a different picture of Gilbert, as it has been awhile since even thinking about that one.
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Cheers

GC
 
Thanks for the info and link GC. The picture, and the surgeon shown with a sword other than the standard is my greatest concern. It's darned hard to find something when you don't know what you are looking for!

My request here, and at other sites (thanks again for the link), is sort of a last ditch effort... a shot in the dark that perhaps Dr. Child's sword is engraved or somehow marked with something that might indicate it was his.

Shortly after publishing our book, I was contacted 'out of the blue', by a gun collector who had a presentation pistol and case that belonged to Dr. Child (we suspect that it was presented to Dr. Child by the regiment after he wrote the 5th NH Regimental History). Recently, I also found his own chess set through a contact at the Civil War Medical Museum who I met at a film shoot at Antietam. These "finds out of the blue" give me some hope that we may still be able to find his sword... the search continues.

I'll provide any more details this afternoon about what we know of his sword.

Thanks again.

Tim
 
timcsaw said:
My own grandmother remembers both swords (the CSA and his own sword) hanging over the fireplace in their home when she was young. To my knowledge though, no one ever described what the sword even looked like.
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If she is still alive and mentally alert could you show her pictures of various possibilities in an attempt to get her to identify the model of the sword at least?
 
Triton said:
If she is still alive and mentally alert could you show her pictures of various possibilities in an attempt to get her to identify the model of the sword at least?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately no, she passed quite a few years ago and my father only remembers the CSA Sword that we have now. I talked to many of his brothers and sister (my uncles and aunt) before they passed, and none of them remember ever seeing his sword either. We suspect (based on genealogical records), that Dr. Child probably did pass his own sword on to his first named grandson when my Grandmother was quite young (5-6?). I am looking for the dates and details today about who that was, and where that branch of the family might have ended up.
 
timcsaw said:
Unfortunately no, she passed quite a few years ago and my father only remembers the CSA Sword that we have now. I talked to many of his brothers and sister (my uncles and aunt) before they passed, and none of them remember ever seeing his sword either. We suspect (based on genealogical records), that Dr. Child probably did pass his own sword on to his first named grandson when my Grandmother was quite young (5-6?). I am looking for the dates and details today about who that was, and where that branch of the family might have ended up.
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Census records are your friends. Many of them are now online.
 
A bit more information;

Dr. Child entered service in Concord NH in August of '62 and wrote his first letters home to his wife from there. In his first letter, he mentions buying things while there - a silk sash, a shoulder strap and an India rubber blanket. This leads me to believe that he probably bought his sword at, or about, the same time (in Concord). Of course this doesn't really help to determine the style or maker of the sword, but perhaps helps narrow the field a bit.

In a narrative interview of Dr. Child, written by Dr. Child's daughter Kate (Child) Meader, she mentions that his own sword is engraved on the blade with his name, and the words "Div. Surg. 5th N.H. Vols.", so this is a hopeful sign. I have no reason to doubt the narrative, so somewhere out there, there is a sword (probably an 1840 MS sword), with "William Child" and his unit designation engraved on the blade.

Our genealogy search leads us to some dead ends so far, but I've a bit more research to do to try to break some new trail there. Dr. Child did have a "namesake" grandson, William Clark Child Sr. who had a son, William Clark Child Jr. but I need to find more out about him (wife? children? location?).
 
Well, if he bought the sword in question when mustering in, the sword would have been inscribed in that manner no earlier than 1864. It most likely was a presentation sword. Check records regarding his appointment to senior officer duties. As he had penned a history, maybe the thing to do is to read through that.

William Child. M.D., Dartmouth, 1857. b. 4 Feb.. 1834, Bath, N. H. Med. Sch., 1856. Asst. Surg. 5th N. H. Vols., 1862-64; Surg., 1864-66; Med. Dir. 1st Div. 2d Corps, 1866-67. Pres. N. H. Med. Soc, 1890. N. H. Leg., 1866-67. Physician, Bath, N. H., 1858-83; New Hampton, N. H., 1883-93. Res., Piermont, N. H.; Highland Springs, Va.; Bath, N. H.

It could well even date to the later fraternal associations, as the inscription mentioned isn't quite as precise as the military record.

Ahh, Piermont. We had a three mile walk to reach the nearest Piermont store for soda and a bag of chips along with a pay phone. I was at the Boynton School up the hill from there during the 1960s.

Cheers

GC

5th New Hampshire, "A History of the Fifth Regiment, New Hampshire Volunteers in the American Civil War, 1861-1865,"by William Child. Originally published in 1893 by R.W. Musgrove at Bristol, New Hampshire. An early reviewer went on to write, "One of the better regimental histories; composed for the most part of letters and diary excerpts by several members of the units; fully covers the Eastern Campaigns beginning with McClellan's advance up the Peninsula." The 5th New Hampshire sustained the greatest loss in battle of any infantry or cavalry regiment, in the entire Union Army (over 1,000 killed and wounded). Colonel Edward E. Cross, the first Colonel of the 5th New Hampshire, was killed in the Wheat Field at Gettysburg, while commanding the brigade. Organized at Concord in September, 1861, the 5th New Hampshire fought at Williamsburg, Fredericksburg, Gettysburg, Cold Harbor, Petersburg, Antietam, Chancellorsville, South Mountain and other major battles in the Eatern Theater of War. At Cold Harbor, this regiment fought their way into the Confederate position and lost over 200 men. They were part of Cross' Brigade, Caldwell's Division, Hancock's 2nd U.S. Army Corps, Army of the Potomac. Roster, 1987 reprint, 620 pages, cost $ . An original 1893 copy if located, may cost around $. Sidenote, the following individual has a copy of this original. Persons researching their ancestors who served in this regiment can e-mail him for information at BOWLERMSM@aol.com 564 page reprint is available for $ .

In October 1864, the enlistment's of the original men were completed and many were mustered out and went home. Surgeon Child recorded that: "The Fifth having been reduced below the minimum number for a regiment by the discharge of the original three year's men whose time had expired was now designated the Fifth New Hampshire Battalion. Captain Welcome A. Crafts was promoted to Lt. Col. and Captain Thomas L. Livermore to Major. The character and condition of the organization was in no matter changed and it was still the same hard working, reliable, fighting organization."
 
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Thanks GC...

Yes, we have quite a number of original copies of the Regimental History that have been passed down, and I've used it extensively in my study. It's actually available on-line now in PDF format at the following site if you are interested; http://www.archive.org/details/historyoffifthre00chil

You touch on a point that I was discussing this afternoon with my folks. When Dr. Child was mustered in, he was appointed "Assistant Surgeon" of the 5th, and at a later date, was appointed/promoted to full Surgeon. If he had purchased this sword in '62 as we suspect, would it have been engraved at that time? I'm not sure.

So you've stomped the woods of Piermont eh? We're practically neighbors!:D

If I find any more useful tid-bits of info, I'll continue to offer them here. If the sword has made it into the hands of a collector, perhaps they'll stumble upon this post, or one of the others I've put up on various other sites. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks again for your help GC... You also Triton.

Best, Tim
 
SShepherd said:
I found this

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/1016/lid/2122

U.S. Hoffman & Sons 1840 Pattern U.S. Medical Staff Officer's Sword with Sheath

28" etched blade, brass hilt and guard with silver "MS" and brass scabbard. Some blade pitting, otherwise good.
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Thanks for the link!

That's a wonderful example of an 1840 pattern. I wish I could see whats engraved on the blade. I'll send them a email to see if they can give me some additional info.

Thanks again!
 
Geesh! I NEVER pop into the Sword forum. And when I do, I immediately bump into you guys! (You three know who I mean.)

Maybe the company means I should stop in more. Or maybe not. :)
 
Scott Free said:
Geesh! I NEVER pop into the Sword forum. And when I do, I immediately bump into you guys! (You three know who I mean.)

Maybe the company means I should stop in more. Or maybe not. :)
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I'd say "Great minds think alike." but that might sound pretentious so I won't.;):D

I'm always glad to see Scott Free in for a visit!:thumbup:
 
Scott Free said:
Geesh! I NEVER pop into the Sword forum. And when I do, I immediately bump into you guys! (You three know who I mean.)

Maybe the company means I should stop in more. Or maybe not. :)
Click to expand...

Friends in low places... ;)
 
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