Mad Dog Knives..Custom?

L

Les Robertson

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Hi, this is in response to Bob's (bald1) inquiry that he thought since we were talking about MD knives, that it was ok to discuss Busse factory knives.

So the question I have to ask is, are the knives handmade by Kevin? If he has help, how much and what is their role in the construction of his knives.

If in fact he is not the maker, then the MD thread will be closed and Bob has my apologies for my mistake for letting the MD thread continue.

Les Robertson
 
I believe Mr. McClung has the O1 blanks pre-cut and does everything else himself. Perhaps someone who has taken a MAD DOG factory tour can explain in more detail.
 
Its my understanding, based on information told to me from someone who toured his shop, that MD does everything himself after his helper cuts the steel bar to a blade shape.

 
Les,

From what I've been told, the blanks are cut and later the chroming done by specialists Kevin contracts. So does that mean he's not a custom maker? I've seen this debate so many times and have found that there are really very very few who do it all. Some send out to heat treat, some use others billets (supplied by Stamascus or Darrel Ralph as examples), some have the blanks pre-cut, and so on. To my way of thinking a custom maker is basically a small operation where the designs are created by the producer/maker. Those designs may in fact just be embellishments of a blank that is hand polished and handle affixed but they're still a reflection of an individual.

So depending on how stringent your interpretation of the rules of engagement are, you could end up with custom makers being an extremely small group. Suffice it to say that for my money the custom guys are the ones with the real creative juices. Their volume is also low because of the attention they give. That includes both McClung and Busse. Re-read Chris Reeves response to this same question put to him by Dexter Ewing. It's on the Knifecenter site. Interesting!

-=[Bob]=-


 
I've been to the shop and saw the knives from birth to shipping.

Kevin indeed does 99% of the work, and all by hand. He purchases the raw Starlett 0-1 steel in long strips and he (or one of his guys) cut them into the shape for the particular model that is on order. When I was there it looked like he does a handful of models at a time, not really any huge "runs" of a particular model.

They are heat treated right in the shop, usually one at a time, there are no huge "racks of knives" where scores are done at once. Each one is given individual attention.

He then grinds them by hand. I sat and watched and entire grinding and was amazed at how long it takes and how physical it is. It is a long, patient process. Grind, grind, grind, cool it down, paint it up with some blue reference dye stuff, then grind, grind, repeat.

The handles start out as these huge blocks of composite and Kevin grinds them into shape. What is amazing is that he does it all by eye and feel, no patterns or anything. This explains the subtle handle variations between identical models.

The only time they go out of the shop is for the hard chroming. Kevin seems fanantical about the QA on these things and keeps a close relationship with the chrome folks, he doesn't just go with the low bidder.

They come back all happily chromed and then the sharpening process starts.

Kevin is absolutely the only guy that does the grinding.

While I was there the other guys that work for him only seemed to be doing Kydex stuff as well as the shipping and packaging, etc. I never saw anyone touch a knife except for Kevin.

After this I walked away having a whole new respect for hand-made knives and the people that make them. I'm amazed that these makers can put out as many as they do.

This is a first-hand account with my own eyes. :-)

--Doug
 
Ditto all of the above.

However, Jerry Busse has total creative control over the process of making his blades, he even has his own steel recipe and does the heat-treats for it himself.

I feel that Busse and Chris Reeve push the high end of the "production" realm to such a high level in both price and performance that jerking the "comparison" thread was arbitrary and a HUGE disservice to people comparing the two. I was very disappointed to see that thread murdered.

Jim March
 
Jim,

Murdered, thats kind of a strong term.

Ok guys and gals its fact time.

Fact, Chris Reeve by his own admission has had no part in the production for over a year. So, Jim who is the custom maker producing Chirs's knives. It could be argued Scott Cook, a very good maker in his own right. I have owned a couple of his knives and he does very good work.

If the current knives being produced by Chris Reeve are custom, why was he not allowed to display thes knives at the previous US Knifemakers Guild Show in Las Vegas this past July? Chris is a voting member in good standing. The answer, he doesnt make the knives anymore. There were two walking canes on Chris's table. While Chris is is a very good knife maker and Im sure will come up with projects in the future that will showcase his talents. But as for now, the knives are factory knives.

As more and more of the knife buying public become aware of Chris's actions. These knives will no longer be considered custom knvies. They will be considered upscale factory knives, such as Micro-Tech.

Jerry Busse, again a excellent knife maker in his own right. Jim, I was buying Busse Custom knives 12 years ago! That's how long I have know about Busse Knives. Which custom models do you or have you owned? However, here is the question, if his Busse Knives are not factory knives, then why does he offer "custom knives" seperately from his current offerings?

Jim, there is currently a wave in this forum and in others to try and give custom status to factory knives. Just because the price is in the same area as a custom knife, doesnt make it any less factory.

Jim, here is a question for you. Which Randall is it that makes Randall Knives? Bo, no (actually he stopped making knives after 1939), Gary, no. Gary's son has made a few but at this point I believe he is still in school. Randall knives have a excellent reputation, earned through many years of use.
However, these are not custom knives!

Jim, Ill stop here as Im sure by this time you get the point (no pun intended). Like it or not, Reeve, Busse, Micro-Tech and Randall are factory knives. Personally, I thought Mad Dog knives were factory too, thats why I asked the question as to how they were constructed. The forum seems to think they are custom knives. Anyone who disagrees please let me know why.

Jim, I am going to call Jerry and talk to him about how he constructs his knives. I will also ask him why he offers customs seperatley (and at $1,000+ price per knife).
Ill report back after I talk to him.


We sure do spend alot of time on factory knives in this forum.

Jim, as far as murder goes, if the United States didnt want me to kill, the Army should nt have sent me to sniper school! I can take out a thread at 1,200 meters! Well actually the threads are easy, they are only about 12 inches away.

Smiles everyone Smiles!!!

Les
 
Sigh. Les, technically, you may be right.

And I'm sorry about "murdered", that was nuts.

BUT the reality is, myself and many others care more about price/performance/functionality than exactly what or who rolled the thing. Right? I mean, when I was shopping for a high-end FB and settled on a Mad Dog, I came very close to pondering a Chris Reeve hollow-grip.

Care to guess how much time I spent thinking about which was handmade? I spent a *lot* of time thinking about steel, functionality, the combat background and martial arts experience of the designer and how that'd match my most likely serious use, and a very, very small amount thinking resale value in a pinch.

Thing is, Les, this forum attracted a huge number of MD posts. Some of those folk may also have Busse experience, so this seemed a good place to do a comparo.

Putting a note in the thread to say that the ordinary line of Busse is production would be fine, otherwise people might be confused finding talk of these in a custom forum.

But halting discussion? Sorry dude, that was over the top.

Jim March
 
Reeve, Busse, MD ,Randall etc. etc. are all
"hand-made" knives. Maybe limited production handmade is a good descriptor.

They are handmade because-a person grinds the blade, by hand, cuts the blank by hand etc.

They are not custom. Custom means -made to order or to the customers specifications.
Call Reeve and ask for a Damascus Sebenza, you will see what I mean.

Benchmade is another distinction that usually involves a team approach. There are guys at Randall that grind, there are guys that haft, there is a seperate sheathmaker, etc etc.

I would suggest that most knives labeled as "custom" knives ain't custom. They are handmade. Big difference. When I sit down with a maker and draw up a knife on paper, and he makes that knife to my spec, thats custom. When I pop over to his table, or Les' at a show, that knife I am buying is handmade, or benchmade.

Yes, this may be semantics.
Does it matter? Not really.
"custom knife maker" sounds a lot cooler than
"Knife maker", so Im sure marketing has a lot to do with how the terminology has evolved.

Jim-cool down buddy, I dont think Les was picking on anybody, he has made it pretty clear that the handmade-prduction stuff like Busse, and MadDog wasn't his cup of tea, and not under the jurisdiction of this forum and that questions about those types of knives should be directed elsewhere.
 
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