Methods & Practices for Purchasing Custom Knives

[Kevin Jones]

There’s been a couple threads started lately describing “knife deals that went bad” between collectors, a dealer and a maker.

I’m very fortunate considering the quantity of custom knives I buy and sell in that I have never had a problem that was not resolved to both parties satisfaction. As a matter of fact, I purchased a knife recently that I was more than a little disappointed with. I sent it back to the dealer and after much communication (before and after delivery), the dealer and I are perhaps on even better terms now in that we understand each other better.

Yes, communication is the key to the success in any business deal or transaction. No matter how many issues or defects; productive communication can usually resolve the situation to each party’s satisfaction.

There’s usually risk to purchaser and seller in varying degree in any business/purchase transaction. IMO, both need to realize and accept this. The risk can be mitigated by effective communication and by the method in which the transaction or purchase is conducted.

Custom knife purchase via Knife Show:
This is obviously by far, the most gratifying and least risky as the buyer can examine/handle the knife, communicate, ask questions and visit with the maker. It’s not as easy as purchasing “on line” from your computer. I don’t charge off show expense to the price of the knife as I do shipping charges and such in calculating total acquisition cost, however one could argue that knives purchased at a show should carry this expense just as dealers and makers have to price show expense into their knives. So my point is that “show knives” could be more expensive than with some other methods of purchase.

Custom knife purchase via Custom Order:
Can also be vary gratifying in dealing “one on one” with the maker in creating a knife that reflects your, taste, preferences and personality. However with much more risk. This risk can be greatly reduced by dealing with makers you are very familiar with, who have good reputations, by your degree of overall custom knife knowledge/design skills, and most importantly COMMUNICATION. Neither buyer or maker should assume anything but communicate both verbally and in writing. I will always e-mail specifications, design ideas and such to the maker in addition to speaking to him. Some makers only want to make “their style of knife” which is OK as long as it’s communicated. Buyers should get best value for dollar spent purchasing via this method.

Custom knife purchase via Dealer and/or On-line:
Again, can be very gratifying in having a great selection to choose from, being able to deal with a very knowledgeable and reputable dealer and requires the least effort from buyer of all methods. However again, more risky. All buyers should enter this type of transaction willing to accept and deal with this risk. Risk can be greatly reduced by only dealing with reputable purveyors that have established good relations over time in the customs industry. And of course, communication is also extremely important here. IMO, you should never buy anything on-line from anyone that does not offer a FULL 100% Refund policy. Some dealers also offer a trade-up policy which can give the collector future flexibility in building/adjusting your collections. Dealer purchases can be the most expensive method; however can still offer good overall value in acquiring the best knives. Remember dealers deserve a profit for services rendered just as other merchants do and they have access to knives that you may not.

The above is just my opinions and views based on my experiences and I invite varying opinions and challenge to my points.

My goal in presenting this thread and initiating discussion to such is to try to eliminate or at least reduce dispute and mis-understanding between makers, dealers and collectors in regard to custom knife purchases.
So please participate in giving opinions, advice, share experiences that may help.

 

[delander]

Kevin.
I 100% agree with you on communication being most important.
That said, knowledge is next I believe - for both parties. Knowledge of the knife, maker, seller and buyer.
A question phrased in an appropriate manner is seldom objectionable, whereas, one phrased in a confrontational manner may well be.
My experience(very limited) is that most folks interested and involved in the Custom knife area are genuine and place 'integrity' high on their list.
On the rare occasion when it doesn't "feel right" I will walk.
Going with one's "gut feeling" is never a bad decision.
Del
dknifeplace

 

[RogerP]

Custom knife purchase via Knife Show:
This is obviously by far, the most gratifying and least risky as the buyer can examine/handle the knife, communicate, ask questions and visit with the maker.

I'm with you on "least risky" but not on "most gratifying". My most gratifying purchases have been custom orders where I work directly with the maker in deciding on design and materials. Don't get me wrong - finding a "gotta have it" knife at a show and buying it right off the table is it's own kind of fun.

Custom knife purchase via Custom Order:
Can also be vary gratifying in dealing “one on one” with the maker in creating a knife that reflects your, taste, preferences and personality. However with much more risk. This risk can be greatly reduced by dealing with makers you are very familiar with, who have good reputations, by your degree of overall custom knife knowledge/design skills, and most importantly COMMUNICATION. Neither buyer or maker should assume anything but communicate both verbally and in writing.

Agree completely that communication is key. If there is no communication between the placing of the order and the completion of the knife, there is a greater chance of difficulties "emerging".

Custom knife purchase via Dealer and/or On-line: IMO, you should never buy anything on-line from anyone that does not offer a FULL 100% Refund policy. Some dealers also offer a trade-up policy which can give the collector future flexibility in building/adjusting your collections. Dealer purchases can be the most expensive method; however can still offer good overall value in acquiring the best knives. Remember dealers deserve a profit for services rendered just as other merchants do and they have access to knives that you may not.

You should expect an accmodating refund policy. You should not, in my opinion, expect more than a refund. A dealer is not a knifemaker. They are selling a product, but beyond ordering it (or purchasing it from a third party) they had no role in making it. If there is a defect in the product - whether it be a flaw by the maker or post-production damage - you should expect and receive a full refund. You should not expect more. It's not up to the dealer to fix the knife or arrange to have it fixed to your satisfaction. It is also up to you as the customer to inform yourself of the dealer's refund policy BEFORE you make the purchase.

The trade-up policy is a tremendous benefit offered by VERY few (two?) dealers.

As to this being the most expensive method - sometimes, but not always. Some dealers strive and largely succeed in selling at the maker's price. Sometimes you get an even better deal - such as where the dealer is selling a knife delivered to him at a price settled upon a year or two ago, and the maker has since raised his prices.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

I'm with you on "least risky" but not on "most gratifying". My most gratifying purchases have been custom orders where I work directly with the maker in deciding on design and materials. Don't get me wrong - finding a "gotta have it" knife at a show and buying it right off the table is it's own kind of fun.
Roger

Thanks Roger, good points.
You and I are similar in that we both choose the custom order route and we are very patience individuals in waiting for them. However generally speaking, I don't see most collectors getting much gratification in waiting 2-3 years or more for a knife to be delivered.

As to this being the most expensive method - sometimes, but not always. Some dealers strive and largely succeed in selling at the maker's price. Sometimes you get an even better deal - such as where the dealer is selling a knife delivered to him at a price settled upon a year or two ago, and the maker has since raised his prices.

Roger

But then other times some dealers mark-up certain maker's knives (Loveless, Lake, Walker, Johnson etc.) double (or more ) what they paid the makers for them. But them often, that's the only way for collectors to get knives from these makers.

 

[ptgdvc]

These are deep waters, indeed!

Regarding custom orders:

1. Know what a maker makes, and makes best.
Don't call Jason Knight to make you a slip joint or Bill Ruple to make you a chopper.

2. Discuss the price and options upfront. Agree on number, plus or minus 10%.
If it is a style of knfe that the maker makes (see above) this should be pretty easy to determine.

3. If you ask a maker to do something, that he has never done before, you are asking for trouble. If maker agrees to do it, he is asking for trouble.
Stick close to a maker's comfort zone. Let him experiment and learn on other peoples' knife projects.

 

[ptgdvc]

Thanks Roger, good points.
...However generally speaking, I don't see most collectors getting much gratification in waiting 2-3 years or more for a knife to be delivered.

Kevin,

You are probably correct, But when Larry Fuegen calls and says that he is ready to start your knife, it is a serious rush that is worth waiting for!

P

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,

You are probably correct, But when Larry Fuegen calls and says that he is ready to start your knife, it is a serious rush that is worth waiting for!

P

I agree with you on that. :thumbup:
You are another patience one.

In another thread it's insinuated that a year is a long time to wait for a custom knife and that opinion is probably shared among most collectors.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Your second scenerio is the only way I purchase knives. I like to have input into what goes into the knives I purchase. You don't get that when you purchase from shows, dealers, or other knife collectors. For that reason, I only purchase directly from makers. Besides, I like having interaction with the person making my knife.

Yes, communication is to me by far the most important part of a satisfactory knife deal. I could never just order a knife and then wait until the maker contacted me to say that my knife was about to be made. I keep in constant contact with makers (hopefully not to the point were I become a pain in the butt). Communicating with makers is a part of purchasing custom knives that I enjoy very much. Without the interaction, I don't think I would enjoy collecting custom knives nearly as much as I do.

I am generally careful as to which makers I order from. A lot of research goes into my purchases. By the time I am ready to order, I am confident that the maker is responsible, honest and ethical. Though there is never a guaranty that something won't go bad, so far nothing has. If purchasers are careful, they can mitigate risk greatly.

 

[Ed Schempp]

My motivation for collecting or buying knives has changed. I collect knives from friends. There are a lot of multi-faceted makers with many skills and ethics to match. When I meet one of these remarkable people I then am motivated to own their work. Yes the knife is cool but only the reflection of a larger beauty. When I've made this connection, communication is not a problem. I think that Keith's comments are very important, do your research and get to know the person with whom you are dealing. I think that if you understand the maker the knife will mean more to you...Take Care...Ed

 

[Hmathews]

Being a maker/collector makes this an interesting thread. It is not really something I have put much deliberate thought into before now, but I realize that there is a pattern to my madness. I find the knives I am most likely to keep are the ones that were made by makers I have gotten to know. I bought a custom knife, in the truest form of the word, from Chubby Hueske a number of years ago and I don't believe that knife could be bought. I enjoyed the whole process, the phone calls, the letters and I didn't mind the wait at all. It was worth it. He asked for a picture of me and the first deer that it was used on. I sent it to him. He was a fine man and I enjoyed getting to know him even though it was only a little and for only a few years. I feel the same way about my Liles, but they were bought at shows. I did buy them from Mr. Lile and enjoyed talking with him each time. What a Gentleman. I have others that were acquired over the years and in most cases there is a connection between me and the maker. One day when my sons sell them, they won't understand and the connection won't add any value, but for now, just try to buy that Hueske.

There is one more way to buy a knife that hasn't been touched on that to me is the best way of all. I think that it is the best way to sell a knife also. That is to visit the makers shop to order a custom knife or buy one on the spot. We have had many people stop by and place orders or purchase one we have in stock. They can pick out the style of knife, reserve the handle material, even the type of leather. We get to meet the customer, and see what he likes. He can pick up what we have available, get the feel of the knives; decide the details he wants while looking at the examples first hand. It is great to talk knives and share experiences with others that share the same interest and get to know them a little. I have some great friends that were met just that way. It is not often possible to do, I know, but we like to encourage customers that are going to be passing through the area to stop by and visit for a while.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Harry and Ed, you both make excellent points that by dealing with friends or makers with which you have long time relationships you basically eliminate the issues addressed in this thread. The same can be said for dealing with purveyors that you have long time relationships with. You are most likely to get their best price and the risk factor is practically non-existence.

Kind of goes back to my "maker; piece; price" philosophy of custom knife collecting.


There's always safety and value in sticking to what you know, however there's disadvantages too.

 

[RogerP]

Piece, maker, price.

Roger

 

[betzner]

I purchase knives all three ways. I have a patience tolerance of about a year on anything I order. That fits pretty well with the two knifemakers I buy from, and their wives, who do the engraving.

In every respect, I agree with Kevin about communication. I would add that as long as there is good feedback between two parties, which promotes the best possible communication, it's really difficult to come out of it damaged, in my humble opinion. Over time, I have had only one difficulty in a transaction. I credit the successes to good two-way communication.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Piece, maker, price.

Roger

Most collectors will place “the piece” at the top, however many times their collections and buying preferences don’t necessarily support that philosophy as their collections primarily contain multiple knives from the same select makers.

On the other hand STeven, for example, is a strong supporter of the piece first strategy and his collection supports this in that he has a very versatile collection made up of many fine individual pieces from an array of makers.
I’m not sure what emphasis Murray White puts on the three (piece; maker; price), however IMO his collection is another that successfully concentrates on the individual piece.

Even though I place the maker first in my collecting strategy, I’m still very selective in which knives I buy from these makers.
Some collectors IMO do take this “maker first” to the extreme in accepting ANYTHING that comes out of their preferred maker’s shop or gets posted to a dealer site regardless of the piece. Again IMO, some Loveless collectors, for example, would fall into this category.

At the end of the day, there's no right or wrong way, just what works best for the individual collector.

 

[betzner]

I think with regard to "the piece" being first and foremost, it's a question of maturity in taste and maturity in collecting, whether one collects the spectrum of makers or just a few individual makers. At least that was true in my case when I first started collecting. I remember going after about anything I could find from one particular maker. After about a year, it seemed it had become a bit tiring, but what had happened was that my taste was tired. For sometime now, however, it's definitely been all about the piece. And sometimes a piece that is not necessarily my taste, but one that to some extent defines that maker, or something about him/her.

 

[RogerP]

Some collectors IMO do take this “maker first” to the extreme in accepting ANYTHING that comes out of their preferred maker’s shop regardless of the piece. Again IMO, some Loveless collectors, for example, would fall into this category.

At the end of the day, there's no right or wrong way, just what works best for the individual collector.

True - by putting the maker first you are effectively excluding the vast majority of makers from even passing consideration, no matter how worthy their efforts might be. If you collect Loveless and Moran only - that's "maker first" and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

But it doesn't have to be taken to the extreme. Even if you only buy from, say, 6 makers instead of 2, or 8 instead of 6 - you are still excluding - what? - about 2,500 or so makers from purchase consideration. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Just like there's nothing wrong with putting the piece first. The maker is still factored in - you only deal with people of integrity and you enjoy the particularly rewarding occasions of working closely with those you consider friends. But ultimately, you are collecting knives, not makers. The latter are rarely for sale. That's why the piece goes first for me. If you're not happy with the piece - or it's not the type or category of knife that interests you - it doesn't matter at all who made it.

Different approaches will yield collecting satisfaction for different people.

Roger

 

[jdm61]

These are deep waters, indeed!

Regarding custom orders:

1. Know what a maker makes, and makes best.
Don't call Jason Knight to make you a slip joint or Bill Ruple to make you a chopper.

2. Discuss the price and options upfront. Agree on number, plus or minus 10%.
If it is a style of knfe that the maker makes (see above) this should be pretty easy to determine.

3. If you ask a maker to do something, that he has never done before, you are asking for trouble. If maker agrees to do it, he is asking for trouble.
Stick close to a maker's comfort zone. Let him experiment and learn on other peoples' knife projects.

Excellent points. sir. There are a select group of makers out there who can pretty much do all things equally well. The problem is that everyone knows this and the knives are priced accordingly...lol. Most guys have developed a set of skills for making a specific type of knife very well and I would think that, as a collector, if you ask them to stray to far from what they are known for, you may find yourself with a knife that is potentially not up to the makers normal standards, but also not so desirable in the collector market. "unique" does not always translate to "collectable"

 

[Keith Montgomery]

My collecting philosophy is based on a very close relationship of piece and maker. I do not collect one to the exclusion of the other. I do however collect only certain types of knives, which in itself does exclude those that don't make those types.

I like the idea of visiting knifemakers shops and ordering a knife while there. It would give me the chance to meet the maker face to face, to maybe see and handle some knives, and to check out materials that I might want to have used in the making of my knife. I will get that chance at Josh Smith's hammer-in next year. There will also be the chance to see the work of many other makers at the same time. This will be an invaluable experience.

No matter where you get your knives from, you have to take the time to research all aspects of the deal you are about to enter into. I have never been one to fly by the seat of my pants. I would never just see a knife that I like and order it, or one like it. First I have to do my research so that I will have a good idea that the deal will end up being satisfying. My nature is to be cautious.

 

[BlazenGem]

this should be stickied.

 

[2knife]

3. If you ask a maker to do something, that he has never done before, you are asking for trouble. If maker agrees to do it, he is asking for trouble.
Stick close to a maker's comfort zone. Let him experiment and learn on other peoples' knife projects.[/QUOTE]

Ha ha, very insightful! I like the way you said that.

Interesting thread. I just had an experience w/ a dealer who charges a .05 percent restocking fee. The knife I ordered wasn't in the condition described, so i agreed to help pay the credit card fees only, which were minimal. Then, I had the idea to offer a trade on the same knife, and it was accepted. So this deal worked out fine.

Normally, I go for particular knives. I only collect one maker, though. And, i do find old knives that i buy, a range of the same maker's work through the years. There is a lot to learn and know about everyone's style. Focusing on one maker allows your vision some clarity. I appreciate it this way, to be able to have a time reference, and notice an evolving style.
David