Model 1 folder - IMPORTANT

[R.A.T.]

All,

It has come to our attention that Ontario has ordered more Model 1 folders from overseas. This is after Ontario and RAT agreed to stop producing this due to it being manufactured overseas. We have also heard that there has been a huge price reduction on the folder. We have formally requested that Ontario not use the RAT name or logo on these new folders since we do not endorse this product. The main reason we pulled our association with this knife is due to the overseas production and the quality going down hill after the initial production run. Mike and I decided that since we could not control the quality coming out of Asia that we would cease the manufacture of this folder. Also, after numerous attempts to buy spare parts from manufacturer Paul Lin for the folder (so we could give them to customers who had a problem), we finally gave up. Any and all warranty repairs became a matter of Mike and I buying new folders from Ontario and stripping parts off of them to send to our customers. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, but if we knew then what we know now about dealing with overseas manufacturers, then we would have never allowed this folder to be built off-shore in the first place.

As for the USA made product built by Ontario, Mike and I plan to continue to endorse that as long as the quality stays to spec.

Jeff Randall

 

[Tim the Slugman]

Thanks for the update guys! keep up the good work!

 

[MRpink]

thanks, and what's up with Ontario's work ethics?

 

[R.A.T.]

I don't know. I'm hoping it's just a slip up of them not remembering that we agreed to cease production due to the problems with Asia. I really like Ontario. It's one of the few remaining old American made knife companies. They're a great company but they need to realize that RAT wants nothing to do with knives or knife components made in Asia. We tried it. It didn't work out and we feel we whored ourselves out by going the Asian route on our folder instead of biting the bullet and doing it in the US to start with. With that said, if something must be made overseas then there are other countries that do good work and don't have the unfair trade practices that Asia does. It's just my opinion, but I think Ontario would be light years ahead of the curve if they threw all their efforts into solely being a great American made knife company and stayed away from the Asian imports.

 

[penganon]

They're a great company but they need to realize that RAT wants nothing to do with knives or knife components made in Asia. We tried it. It didn't work out and we feel we whored ourselves out by going the Asian route on our folder instead of biting the bullet and doing it in the US to start with. With that said, if something must be made overseas then there are other countries that do good work and don't have the unfair trade practices that Asia does. It's just my opinion, but I think Ontario would be light years ahead of the curve if they threw all their efforts into solely being a great American made knife company and stayed away from the Asian imports.

I think your comment here is unfair to Asia as a whole. Maybe your judgment was solely based on your experience with Northerners. Perhaps you should try going further south - similar to how you're making your name with South Americans.

PS. To be fair to Ontario, I think they found a market for the folder in Asia and that's whom they are catering to. Perhaps a win-win situ is that you guys can work out a licensing deal for the knives to be sold in Asia only. I sold two dozen of them in one day in Bangkok at US$65 and the market price is going up instead of down.

Respect.

 

[R.A.T.]

True, our comments may be unfair to Asia as a whole, but at the risk of hurting someone's feelings I'm going to say it just like we feel: Our first concern is with the American worker and the American manufacturer. We may lose a LOT of business because of this but we stand on the statement that you quoted above. Too many American made knife companies have gone overseas and we're just tired of it. Mike and I are not in this business for a quick buck. We have nothing against Asia except our loyalties are with the American worker and manufacturer first. Hopefully Asia likes our American made product well enough to continue to buy it as they have the Asian made folder. Maybe that might balance the trade deficit a little, eh?

Jeff

 

[R.A.T.]

BTW: I would be interesting in knowing who your company is and who you are importing from since I've never seen a company from Thailand on our monthly report from Ontario. Just curious. Please email me if you will at jeff@ratcutlery.com

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[penganon]

Hopefully Asia likes our American made product well enough to continue to buy it as they have the Asian made folder. Maybe that might balance the trade deficit a little, eh?

Jeff

The jungle of Asia may not be as large as the jungle of America. But to the those who proclaim to know the ways of the wild, placing their trust in just any knife lesser than a RAT is just unwise.

 

[jforbush]

I will chime in on this!! As a customer here in the United States I will NEVER buy a foreign blade again. After getting a true AMERICAN made knife I will never go back. I would rather pay more and get an all American blade then buy something that has been farmed out to another country just so the company can cut cost. RC knives are a all American blade and they have my business for life based on the fact that they would rather pay more in the manufacturing process to keep it in America.

 

[CRKS]

I agree that an American made knife is what most people want in the knife world. I am all for American made knives.

Lets look at things from a business prospective; using the pie chart approach, assume that every knife sold in the US fills up a pie pan. Each knife maker foreign and domestic is trying to get the largest slab of pie possible. In order to get a large slab the manufacturer has to consider every potential customer and use the who, what, where, and why reasoning. After evaluating every angle the manufacturer finds that a large group of people (mostly non-knife enthusiasts) are in the market to buy a good knife that will make a good gift, EDC, or job knife. That same potential customer has nothing against buying a knife made in the US, however he/she finds that an off shore knife is less expensive and buys the off shore knife.

IT all boils down to this if you do not offer the imports at a lower price your taking yourself out of the market for quite a few customer that will buy a knife this year.

In order for many of the time tested true American knife manufacturers (that are importing knives) to stay in business they have to offer that customer the import knife. The imports are helping the company's to maintain a "+" sign in the profit column. Thus allowing the company to stay open and produce both American made knives and import knives.

Blade forums is filled with Knife Enthusiasts (I love it here). Most people here spend more money on knives than Britney Spears spends on therapists and attorneys. What you have to do is look at how people outside the knife world buy knives, once you do you will see why most of the big companies import knives. A true computer geek would never buy a computer from Walmart, they all have custom built computers, they could give you 1,001 reasons you should not buy a Walmart computer. How many of your folks are reading this post right now using a Walmart or other box store computer.

Jeff and Mike you are putting out a great knife I sell quite a few Ontario RAT knives and RAT Cutlery Knives. Its your business, if you choose not to have an import knife thats your prerogative, just remember your slab of pie just got smaller.

As a side note calling the Ontario RAT Folder an Asian knife is geographically correct. However specifically stating that the knife is made in Taiwan pins it down and I know that Taiwan is putting out some nice blades.

Remember everything before the word "but" is bull shit (a quote from Quinn and Rose a Pittsburgh talk show host)

Tom
Chestnut Ridge Knife Shop

 

[rifon2]

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[Esav Benyamin]

It's not that Asians don't do good work. Spyderco and Kershaw have high-quality Asian production. But they work much more closely with their Asian factories, in fact, Kershaw owns them.

Unfortunately, if you contract out, you are at the mercy of people who care nothing about your profits, your ethics, or your customers. That's the problem with this set-up, where contracting wih Ontario led to contracting with an essentially unknown Asian component who has no history with RAT and couldn't care less. He'll take your design the way he can steal any design, manufacture any level of quality he can sell fast and cheap behind your back -- and leave you making excuses for him?

Whom has he really hurt? Like the Chinese factories that produced toxic goods, they hurt their own people's reputation as an honest supplier, and fuel a resurgent call for domestic manufacture. I remember reading years ago that this was the problem with Pacific Cutlery going out of business and why Benchmade stuck to domestic production so long.

Ontario (and Spyderco) got some very nice knives from Italy. These are probably contracters with the integrity to make the knives the right way, but if they can, we can, too. Kershaw is an Asian company, but look how well their American production is doing, and at the right prices, too.

Congratulations to the RAT team for going for integrity and quality. I think the American RAT-1 will be a big hit. (Hey, call it the RAT-A1 !!! )

 

[R.A.T.]

Not to be argumentative here, but I could tell horror stories about companies who lost big in the Asian knife business, but I won't. Our slice of the pie will not get smaller because we refuse to do business with Asia - our business is actually growing as a direct result of that decision.

Esav, you nailed it right on the head.

In the end, we're betting our time, effort and money on the American worker and American manufacturer. We may lose in the long run but we still believe it's possible for Americans to produce a product second to none at a reasonable price.

Onward!

Jeff

 

[R.A.T.]

As a side note to all of this, has anyone paid attention to the quality that's coming from China now? A good friend of ours that does business in China and travels there a lot, chuckles when you mention how good Taiwan quality. What the average consumer may not realize is the product may be stamped "Taiwan" but that doesn't necessarily mean it was made there. I know of one well known Asian manufacturer that has businesses in Taiwan with most of his manufacturing in China. Guess what's stamped on the product?

Esav nailed it in his post. Unless you have someone on the ground, watching everything that's happening with your product then you're at the mercy of having to believe what someone tells you. We can't afford to have a spy in Asia at this time, so we choose to not have our name associated with an Asian product.

 

[texastonydobbs]

I am waiting & saving my hard earned cash for a USA Folder from RC....I will buy 2-3 atleast...PE only for me though....

 

[Esav Benyamin]

What the average consumer may not realize is the product may be stamped "Taiwan" but that doesn't necessarily mean it was made there. I know of one well known Asian manufacturer that has businesses in Taiwan with most of his manufacturing in China. Guess what's stamped on the product?

Inidentally, we're not just talking about knives here.

The same goes for Asian-built computers. How many of our computers are not built in Asia? How many might have stealth circuitry built in to them that won't activate until ... ???

 

[okbohn]

I spoke with Ontario and they have some of the RAT knives left, but they are selling out of those and the next ones they have will be different because they are not doing the RAT folder any more....at least that is what they told me.

 

[R.A.T.]

Derrick, thanks for the post. Mike and I have heard nothing from Ontario since we asked them (this last time) to stop making the folder with our name on it. Not to slight you in any way, but it's a shame that we find out what's going on with our knives from a customer instead of from Ontario themselves. A total lack of communication. Anyway, thanks for the post and the update.

Jeff

 

[okbohn]

That is sad. I might add this little caviat to what I said...I was talking to my sales rep. He might not be in the know, but he seemed pretty confident.

 

[rifon2]

Mike and I have heard nothing from Ontario since we asked them (this last time) to stop making the folder with our name on it. Not to slight you in any way, but it's a shame that we find out what's going on with our knives from a customer instead of from Ontario themselves. A total lack of communication.
Jeff

Your R.A.T. products are outstanding.
At the same time, though, Ontario has always seemed to be a real good outfit as well.

Apparently your partnership - or whatever it was - with Ontario has ended with some frayed edges.

But having been around the block a few times, I think there's lot to be said for the old saying "There are 3 sides to every story..."