Mokume input...

Osbourn

Osbourn

Joined
Jun 27, 1999
Messages
804
I was looking at the rings at http://www.mokume.com and decided that that's what I want to make for my wife for our five year anniversary. The two-tone silver bands look good, but I checked the price of palladium, and at $964 an ounce, I'm not going to be playing with it any time soon. I was wondering if pure nickel and silver will bond, or nickel and sterling silver. Has anyone played with these at all?
<img src=http://www.mokume.com/images/sterpallanilg2.jpg>
This is the look I'm going for.
All input is welcome.

------------------
Oz


"His name is Robert Paulson."
http://www.freespeech.org/oz/


[This message has been edited by Osbourn (edited 02-20-2001).]
 
I really like the subtlety and stability of these metals, actually. I can make shakudo, but the copper in it oxidizes in a way that makes it less desirable for rings. Also, my body is reactive to many metals, and these two are both proven to be safe for me. Anything that I can bond with sterling silver or pure silver that doesn't easily corrode would be desirable. I'd go with copper or nickel silver if I could, but they do nasty things to skin when left on for more than an hour or so. The only thing prohibitive of gold is the price, unless anyone knows a good source for 18ct gold sheet for a good price?
The other important factor would be that I make the mokume, not buy it. I know, I have to make everything so hard...

------------------
Oz

"His name is Robert Paulson."
http://www.freespeech.org/oz/

[This message has been edited by Osbourn (edited 02-20-2001).]
 
Hello Oz,

Here's some of the info I have with regards to compatability and making Mokume. First I don't have anything that works with pure nickel on my list so I will instead compare with nickel silver (65%Cu/18%Ni/17%Zn). The copper based alloys are usally easier to work with.

Nickel Silver/Fine Silver: Difficult to Bond
Nickel Silver/Sterling Silver: Easy to Bond & work
Nickel Silver/80/20 Silver (20%Cu): Easy to Bond & Work
Nickel Silver/Shakudo (96%Cu/4%Au): Easy to Bond & Work
Nickel Silver/Sterling Silver: Easy to Bond & Work
Fine Silver/Shakudo: Easy to Bond & Work
80/20 Silver/Shakudo: Easy to Bond & Work

If you can think of any other combos let me know I'll try to list them.

I stuck in Shakudo because it is a unique alloy with has a nice contrast with silvers (general color) and golds. When Shakudo is put in a patina the metal turns a dark blue, purple or black color. It looks quite nice in a twist patterned ring like you showed above. Here's a site if your interested in Shakudo... http://www.reactivemetals.com/rmsbime.htm .

Here's some Metals Characteristics that might help as well.

Nickel Silver:
Anneal- 1100-1500°F
Anneal/Cooling- Quench at dull red color
Melting Point- 1960°F
Flow Point- 2030°F

Fine Silver:
Anneal- 572°F
Anneal/Cooling- Quench at black heat
Melting Point- 1761°F
Flow Point- 1761°F

Sterling Silver:
Anneal- 1200°F
Anneal/Cooling- Quench at black heat
Melting Point- 1435°F
Flow Point- 1647°F

80/20 Silver:
Anneal- 1200°F
Anneal/Cooling- Quench at black heat
Melting Point- 1432°F
Flow Point- 1510°F

Shakudo:
Anneal- 1200°F
Anneal/Cooling- Quench at dull red color
Melting Point- 1720°F
Flow Point- 1935°F

Any other questions let me know, I'll try to answer if I can.

Take care,
Tom



------------------
"A handful of patience is worth more than a bushel of brains"
AKTI Member A001010
 
Well, it looks like I spent too much time typing out my explaination, you guys beat me to it.

I think Shakudo is o.k. for rings. It does go through a tranformation while wearing it. The patina will wear off, then the oils of your skin will re-patina the metal. To bad you have a reaction to Cu alloys.

For a good place to get gold, silver and other metals, check out the following:
Hoover & Strong
10700 Trade Rd.
Richmond, VA 23236
800-759-9997
804-794-3700
http://www.hooverandstrong.com/

Please post your ring after your done. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with.

Take care,
Tom
 
On metal mixes like these do you etch with acid? I know Rio Grande also sells chemicals for achieving different patinas on precious metals and I'm wondering if one of these would work.
 
I have not tried mokume made with pure nickel and sterling or fine silver, but there is no reason at all it would not work.

I have made mokume with copper and pure nickel, and that works fine, but bonds at a higher temp than copper and nickel silver.

When you are making mokume by diffusion bonding (forge welding, not brazing), the lower temperature melting alloy is the bonding agent. Pure nickel has a very high melting point, so you will be counting on the other material to make the bond. I would suggest fine silver, rather than sterling, because of the copper alloy content in the sterling, and the grain growth/hot short tendencies of sterling.

Pure nickel and fine silver should work, and it would indeed be a subtle contrast. Set the materials up "as normal" for how ever you do it, then heat it up until the silver looks "wet", and you should be there. Good luck !
smile.gif
 
In case I forget to mention, thanks to everyone for all the great input and data.
I happen to have some pure nickel for some 1095/ni damascus that I was going to try. I also have some fine silver. I'll try bonding them and see if it works. I was going to etch them after, starting with vinegar and working my way up to H2So4 if necessary, as well as a couple of oxides. I don't expect to have to go that high, though.
I was going to wrap the whole mess in SS heat treating foil to prevent oxidization. This makes it hard to tell when the metals are molten. I was thinking that the press plates I'm making are going to be pretty heavy (3/8" 304 stainless), so I may see the top one shift down a bit if I watch carefully, but that could also be too late. I could also just leave a small piece of silver outside of the envelope and watch for it to bead. I'm also going to make a few pieces of copper/brass and copper/nickel silver mokume first so I have some more experience. I'll post pics as I progress, if they're not too embarrassing.
Anyone know the melting temp for pure nickel?
 
Oz, I looked in a old materials book I have and it says the melting point for Nickel is 2647°F (1453°C) . Can anyone else verify this?

Tom
 
they're talking about nickle silver, not pure nickle. the melting temp of nickle silver is less, *i think*
 
I don't know if my forge will go up to 2647 without a lot of coaxing. It takes around 20 minutes of being on to build up enough BTUs to weld.
I'd really like to avoid nickel silver for the rings because of the copper content, although I'm using some for some of my practice billets that I'll use for knife parts. I have a sword that has needed nice fittings for awhile, or several unfinished knives that could use some prettiness. I'm really looking forward to trying this out, and I'm hoping to give it my first run this weekend.
I'll let you know.


------------------
Oz


"His name is Robert Paulson."
http://www.freespeech.org/oz/
 
Oz, I don't think you have to worry about getting your forge that hot for pure nickel. You have to concern yourself with the metal with the lowest melting point otherwise you'll have yourself a nice puddle of mokumelt. You'll start to see that lowest melting point metal start to shimmer/sweat, that will be the eutectic point at which the atoms are starting to bond. Most likely the temp will be just below the temp of the lowest melting point metal.

Looking forward to hearing your experience.

good luck,
Tom
 
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