Need help with forging press build.

P

PoorestBoy

Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
63
HI, im new to these forums, and pretty new to forging as well. Im not sure if this is the right place for my thread or not. I hope it is.

I have studied many youtube videos and even some forum discussions about forging and more precisely about building a forging press. I am aware that i can possibly get by with an air over hydraulic bottle jack, and if all else fails that's the direction i will go. However, i also know that its not the best solution either and i would like to use a hydraulic cylinder and power unit. I have an old power unit that was taken off of a lift gate, i assume. I believe that all it needs is an electric switch to control the motor, if im not mistaken, and of course a hydraulic cylinder as well, which i don't have. I'm not sure if this unit is powerful enough for my needs but i would like to build a 20 ton press. Please, if you have any helpful information, and even want to share any safety warnings, i am all ears. I cannot afford a $300 dollar cylinder and would like to know where i can get something more affordable. I would also like to know what size cylinder i need, and whether or not my power unit is even big enough for a 20 ton forging press. I do have some 2" bar stock (not tubing) that i was considering using to build the press frame.

I will give all the information that i have found on this hydraulic power unit, but some things are missing.

here is the information/specs that i have found on the unit.

On the electric motor is the following info-

Fenner Fluid Power
1787-ac
12 v DC
Standard duty


ON the hydraulic reservoir is the following information-

Anthony lift gates inc.
Part # A150498

Sorry but there is no other info listed.



Also, i would like to know if i can take a 20 ton bottle jack and hook it up to this power unit. I know that many people will say its better to buy a cylinder instead, but i dont have 300 dollars. I can buy a cheap 20 ton bottle jack however. Is this possible?

Thank you for reading my thread. If you can help please advise me. Thank you.
 
Go to a hydraulic cylinder rebuild shop

They will have some used cylinders available.


You need a dual acting cylinder so no, the cheap jacks don't do that.


Size is minimum 4" ffor me.
five or six inch are better but take more fluid, more pump and more HP, more electricity to run.


For forging presses to be useful, it need to be fast enough to get some work done befire the steel is cool.


That pump syatem if too small and too slow.
12v systems are for raising snowplow blades.



I'd gather up
$1,000 for a forging press build.
 
Thank you for your reply 12345678910. I wont be able to gather that kind of money. I'll need to make due with this unit or a 20 ton air over hydraulic bottle jack. I saw a guy on youtube use one and it didn't seem to do that bad. I understand that ideally you need something better, but i forge by myself, and have no striker, and so i need a press. A power hammer is not ideal for where i live either. Any press would be better than nothing, as long as i don't waste more forge fuel than i would with a 4 lb sledge. I just need something for a poorboy. Do you think this power unit might at least be as good as using an air over hydraulic bottle jack?

One other detail i forgot to mention is that this power unit only has one hydraulic hose attached to it. It does have one or two more ports but they are plugged and there is no indication that it ever had more than just one hose. Would i still need a double acting cylinder or would a single action work? If so, is it in the realm of possibility to use a bottle jack on this unit? If not is it possible to use a single action hydraulic cylinder? Please, i know my questions are amateur, but i need simple solutions that don't cost much, even if they are less than ideal. Anything must be better than nothing at all. Thank you so much for you time.
 
Good tools are rarely cheap, and cheap tools are rarely good.

I always tell people that those who have the least available cash should not waste it. Making a press from an air over hydraulic bottle jack won't work worth a darn. It will likely be wasted money.

I would buy a copy of Batson's book on building a hydraulic forging press. It will be $30 well spent.
http://www.bluemoonpress.org/index....uilding-your-own-hydraulic-forging-press.html
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Good tools are rarely cheap, and cheap tools are rarely good.

I always tell people that those who have the least available cash should not waste it. Making a press from an air over hydraulic bottle jack won't work worth a darn. It will likely be wasted money.

I would buy a copy of Batson's book on building a hydraulic forging press. It will be $30 well spent.
http://www.bluemoonpress.org/index....uilding-your-own-hydraulic-forging-press.html
Click to expand...



Thank you for the reply Stacy. I know you guys are right, so please forgive my prodding of the issue. I once had a crazy idea about stacking two "air over hydraulic" jacks on top of one another, in hopes that it would double the speed. I thought about using either two ten ton jacks or two 20 ton jacks. I have no idea if it would work or not, and maybe its just a crazy notion. Perhaps you all are correct and i should save my money. I saw this guys video on youtube, and although it was not great, the press did seem to do more work than i could do with a hammer. I imagined having a fullering die on one side and a flattening die on the other (if that the correct terminology). I thought that i might be able to draw out spring steel faster this way. I have hammered out leaf springs down to half their original width and it was very difficult work. (I think the proper term would be drawing out the metal?) Anyway, i made a draw knife out of spring steel, and it took many heats. Fuel isn't cheap and i wondered if a press like this guy has in the video would be helpful in conserving fuel by drawing out metal at a faster rate.

Here is a video of a air over hydraulic jack in action, doing a little forging

[video]https://youtu.be/o6hLzbsC9Vs[/video]
 
Build it with the bottle jack and replace the jack with a proper hydraulic cylinder system later. The frame and platforms need to be very heavy duty, as you might have noticed in the video. The welds need to be heavy and strong.

The bottle jack builds generally use 2 strong coil springs to make the return stroke.
 
I will admit I am an owner of a mini press that has seen a lot of use for the past 7 years or so and it has been ok. But I say that with a word of caution in that if you make one you must do it right as the amount of force you are containing is very dangerous. When I made mine I made it twice as strong as I thought I needed and I'm glad I did because now if I made it again I would double its strength again on top of what I did back then. But a press is not and end all be all tool. Yes it's sure nice to have but if your scratching the bottom of the barrel thy just find the money to buy a bottle jack you might want to rethink the build. I'm not saying don't build a Mini press in saying don't build a press half assed even a mini press. If your going to do it do it right. This will require a welder that can get the penetration you need for the strength that's required. A little wire feed welder like I currently own would never cut it. Use square tubing with as thick of wall as you can get I think I used 1/4" wall. But if I re did it over I would Try and go bigger and thicker. Where a press shines is reducing large sized stock, I use mine to brake down large 2" round stock or bearings down into something more hammer friendly. You would be surprised for fast you can thin steel out when using the edge of an anvil or the horn and the cross Peen of a hammer. If your wanting a press to make some stock a little thinner and money is tight then I would say save your money and use it to by thinner stock.
 
JT is right, learn how to use your available tooling (hammer and anvil) to do an effective job. I made a bunch of leaf-spring draw knives, as well as a whole lot of knives, before ever getting any power forging equipment. Forging is exhausting, difficult labor when breaking down larger, higher carbon items. That's just the way it is, but you still have options.
Rip your leaf springs into two narrower pieces with an O/A torch. You may not have one- I'd buy one of those before attempting to build a press. It will help you build more of your own equipment. Sure, torch cuts can be a bitch to grind clean enough for subsequent forging. Well, that's an opportunity to become skilled with the torch.
Or, keep an eye out for narrow leaf springs. If you scrounge they can be found. Or, start with heavy coil springs. I preferred them for knives at any rate, and have made swords from them. Or, get a helper, and use a hot cut top tool to split that leaf spring hot, using the forge. I've done that too. Or, buy narrow spring stock from a spring shop, or buy narrow 5160 from Admiral Steel or whoever is cheapest for you to use.
Build yourself a big, straight peen hammer specifically for drawing out bigger stock if you must. I have used a large splitting maul, cut the edge off, re-worked the edge into a blunt straight peen, and re-heat treated and that worked fine. You can do it without having to re HT it if you are careful about heat input while re-working it. Just be smarter than me and educate yourself about how to swing it without incurring tendinitis.
Fill out your profile! Perhaps you live near one of us that could be of assistance to you. And, if your forum moniker is a clue as to your mindset- some unsolicited advice. Don't have a "poor" mentality, it may limit you. You won't be able to outfit a strong shop ultimately, without at least some real money. It's true, to build a decent press is at LEAST $500 and that's if you repeatedly get lucky on salvage parts. Frugality is indeed a virtue, but maybe make a bunch of stuff with your shop's current capabilities, and sell it, and then your skills will be worthy of new equipment when you can afford to buy or build it.
 
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Making tools and jigs is great fun, and can be a hobby in itself, and has its own rewards in what you learn by trial and error.
For anyone interested in forging, though, I'd strongly encourage you to start with what can easily be forged by hand- I feel that you learn things about how metal moves by hand hammering that are difficult to learn other ways.
If you use suitable materials in suitable sizes, it's not that physically difficult- some of the best blacksmiths I know are not-so-beefy females.
There are some great classes to be had on knife forging, but if those are out of your reach, contact your local blacksmiths group- you'll skip a year or two of frustration by getting hands on with anyone who's "been there done that" and learning basic forging principles and techniques....it's the shortcut to making good knives.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Build it with the bottle jack and replace the jack with a proper hydraulic cylinder system later. The frame and platforms need to be very heavy duty, as you might have noticed in the video. The welds need to be heavy and strong.

The bottle jack builds generally use 2 strong coil springs to make the return stroke.
Click to expand...

Thats a good idea. I was wondering about the welds too. I noticed that many frames are bolted together but i also saw that some shopbuilt ones were welded. I agree the welds will need to be strong. Thank you again
 
JTknives said:
I will admit I am an owner of a mini press that has seen a lot of use for the past 7 years or so and it has been ok. But I say that with a word of caution in that if you make one you must do it right as the amount of force you are containing is very dangerous. When I made mine I made it twice as strong as I thought I needed and I'm glad I did because now if I made it again I would double its strength again on top of what I did back then. But a press is not and end all be all tool. Yes it's sure nice to have but if your scratching the bottom of the barrel thy just find the money to buy a bottle jack you might want to rethink the build. I'm not saying don't build a Mini press in saying don't build a press half assed even a mini press. If your going to do it do it right. This will require a welder that can get the penetration you need for the strength that's required. A little wire feed welder like I currently own would never cut it. Use square tubing with as thick of wall as you can get I think I used 1/4" wall. But if I re did it over I would Try and go bigger and thicker. Where a press shines is reducing large sized stock, I use mine to brake down large 2" round stock or bearings down into something more hammer friendly. You would be surprised for fast you can thin steel out when using the edge of an anvil or the horn and the cross Peen of a hammer. If your wanting a press to make some stock a little thinner and money is tight then I would say save your money and use it to by thinner stock.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Your thoughts express the exact reason i want a mini press. I just want to reduce large size stock. Maybe leaf springs are not considered large but they sure seem like a lot of work to draw out. ITs not the work that bothers me so much but the fuel consumption that is required to heat the steel. I just want to reduce the number of heats required to rough the steel into shape. You are right that i should take care to build this press correctly. That reminder is helpful. I was thinking about using 2" bar stock, only because i have some on hand. It might be overkill but its what i have. I have a 225 amp stick welder that i was going to use. I was going to bevel the joints so i could get full penetration. Im not a welder but i did make my own anvil out of forklift tines which turned out ok. I studied a lot of welding videos online which really improved my welding skills, although i still dont consider myself a professional welder. Anyway, i welded a horn onto the anvil using this method. So far its holding together pretty well. I beveled the top and bottom of the horn and welded it thoroughly. I used 5/32 7018 welding rod, at 200 amps, which the welding supply store recommended. Im thinking this method might work for welding the 2"" bar stock that i have. I also considered welding some plate over the joints for added strength. Maybe tubing might be a better option though, and i think i may be able to afford enough for a small press. I m not sure what rout i will try yet.
 
Salem Straub said:
JT is right, learn how to use your available tooling (hammer and anvil) to do an effective job. I made a bunch of leaf-spring draw knives, as well as a whole lot of knives, before ever getting any power forging equipment. Forging is exhausting, difficult labor when breaking down larger, higher carbon items. That's just the way it is, but you still have options.
Rip your leaf springs into two narrower pieces with an O/A torch. You may not have one- I'd buy one of those before attempting to build a press. It will help you build more of your own equipment. Sure, torch cuts can be a bitch to grind clean enough for subsequent forging. Well, that's an opportunity to become skilled with the torch.
Or, keep an eye out for narrow leaf springs. If you scrounge they can be found. Or, start with heavy coil springs. I preferred them for knives at any rate, and have made swords from them. Or, get a helper, and use a hot cut top tool to split that leaf spring hot, using the forge. I've done that too. Or, buy narrow spring stock from a spring shop, or buy narrow 5160 from Admiral Steel or whoever is cheapest for you to use.
Build yourself a big, straight peen hammer specifically for drawing out bigger stock if you must. I have used a large splitting maul, cut the edge off, re-worked the edge into a blunt straight peen, and re-heat treated and that worked fine. You can do it without having to re HT it if you are careful about heat input while re-working it. Just be smarter than me and educate yourself about how to swing it without incurring tendinitis.
Fill out your profile! Perhaps you live near one of us that could be of assistance to you. And, if your forum moniker is a clue as to your mindset- some unsolicited advice. Don't have a "poor" mentality, it may limit you. You won't be able to outfit a strong shop ultimately, without at least some real money. It's true, to build a decent press is at LEAST $500 and that's if you repeatedly get lucky on salvage parts. Frugality is indeed a virtue, but maybe make a bunch of stuff with your shop's current capabilities, and sell it, and then your skills will be worthy of new equipment when you can afford to buy or build it.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I was waiting for you guys to tell me to learn how to use my anvil and hammer. :D I agree, i was thinking that as well. I do need more practice. I was using an 8 lb sledge on a short handle to help draw out the springs. I know that sounds insane, but it did help. That big hammer really worked me. IT made one arm much bigger than the other. I have a 2.5 lb cross peen hammer, and i need to get a 4 lb as well, i think. Your advice about using a cutting torch is good. I do have an oxy/propane torch which would work well. I used it to cut 1 1/2" thick forklift tines. I also once used a grinder to cut a leaf spring. It worked ok. I used that method to make my first draw knife. I wasn't sure about heat treating steel back then, and so i used the "stock removal" method to make that knife. IT worked out ok. The current draw knife i am making is actually my first attempt at heat treating. My first attempt was a disaster. I overheated the steel in the forge and melted off the thin handle. I kept forging it though, just for the learning experience, but then i did something really stupid, i tried to straighten the blade after i quenched it, and before i tempered it, and of course it broke. lol My second attempt was much better but after i quenched it and tempered it i noticed that it had many micro fractures in the blade. I think its because i either tried to forge in a couple places when the steel was cold, or because i used a grinder on it after i hardened it and before i tempered it. Either way, its all a valuable learning experience for me. THis is my third attempt and i haven't quenched it yet. Im excited to see how it turns out.
 
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By the way, Salem Straub. I agree that the poorboy mindset isnt good. You are correct and i thank you for saying so. I was just using it as a term to describe a person who makes their own tools. I have watched many videos online and i have ran across many "poorman's tool" videos. Its sometimes just a term used to describe a person who makes their own tools, but it has also been used to describe a person who makes junk. I see your point. I was going to just use the name poorboy but it was taken, so i modified it.
 
Remember that most of the presses that have been sold commercially to knife makers isn recent years ncluding the Imagination Xpress, the Bowie, the Tommie McNabb, the Uncle Al/Pieh Tool presses and even the monster "high tech" ones like the Whitmus press started out or were inspired by some "hobby" project. These are pretty specialized pieces of gear in that they are small and have easily swappable dies. Most of them can be and originally were built as one offs if you have the basic tools and talent. I have seen one person using a commercial built small press that was not originally designed for knives, but it was a strange European flatbed "toolroom" machine that was made for small scale work, possible in the high end firearms industry in Belgium. Most of this guys stuff was surplus that came out of Liege IIRC.
 
elementfe said:
Making tools and jigs is great fun, and can be a hobby in itself, and has its own rewards in what you learn by trial and error.
For anyone interested in forging, though, I'd strongly encourage you to start with what can easily be forged by hand- I feel that you learn things about how metal moves by hand hammering that are difficult to learn other ways.
If you use suitable materials in suitable sizes, it's not that physically difficult- some of the best blacksmiths I know are not-so-beefy females.
There are some great classes to be had on knife forging, but if those are out of your reach, contact your local blacksmiths group- you'll skip a year or two of frustration by getting hands on with anyone who's "been there done that" and learning basic forging principles and techniques....it's the shortcut to making good knives.
Click to expand...

Thank you, very good advice. Im a hobbyist, and i like to make stuff. Maybe one day i can make money doing this, but if not im happy with it regardless. I love blacksmithing. I wished i had youtube many years ago, when i was much younger. I never even imagined that people still hand forged steel. and i was never really exposed to it before. I love it though. You 're correct that i could learn more by using a hammer and i agree. I can see how that would be true. I just want to use a press for the really heavy work. I like the idea of using scrap leaf springs. Its just my way i guess. In the future, maybe i'll try some new steel as well. I was thinking about buying a good video produced by a good teacher, but i don't think the classes will work for me personally, although i agree that it is the best option for most people. I have watched many videos done b many people on youtube, and i have read forum threads as well. I think i have learned a lot. I studied these things for about a year before i even started to forge anything. It was confusing for a long time, but eventually things started to fall into place. I recently only learned about normalizing steel. I knew about annealing, hardening and tempering, but i wasn't quite sure what normalizing was. Im not even close to being a metallurgist, but i think i finally have a solid foundation in heat treating, especially for carbon steels. I have a few things to learn yet, but i'll get there, God willing.
 
jdm61 said:
Remember that most of the presses that have been sold commercially to knife makers isn recent years ncluding the Imagination Xpress, the Bowie, the Tommie McNabb, the Uncle Al/Pieh Tool presses and even the monster "high tech" ones like the Whitmus press started out or were inspired by some "hobby" project. These are pretty specialized pieces of gear in that they are small and have easily swappable dies. Most of them can be and originally were built as one offs if you have the basic tools and talent. I have seen one person using a commercial built small press that was not originally designed for knives, but it was a strange European flatbed "toolroom" machine that was made for small scale work, possible in the high end firearms industry in Belgium. Most of this guys stuff was surplus that came out of Liege IIRC.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Im no engineer, thats for sure. However these guys who engineer things like this are inspiring.
 
I think that I am in a position similar to yours. I bought an Imagination Xpress and I have planes for a McDonald rolling mill, but I lack the skill, experience and tolls to build it. People who say that these things are easy are people who have built other stuff and know how to do it. :D
 
jdm61 said:
I think that I am in a position similar to yours. I bought an Imagination Xpress and I have planes for a McDonald rolling mill, but I lack the skill, experience and tolls to build it. People who say that these things are easy are people who have built other stuff and know how to do it. :D
Click to expand...

Yes, we are similar in our limitations is seems. I also thought about building the rolling mill. They seem simple but buying all the bearings, sprockets, chain, and electric motor, not to mention the steel, would get pricey i think. I had an idea about using some old trailer hubs that i had from a scrap pile, and either weld them to schedule 80 pipe (i think thats right), or maybe bolting break drums to them and use that for the rollers. However i would still need the motor, sprockets/chain, and the steel frame and other components. Maybe one day i'll try to build one. Maybe i'll even buy new parts instead of using scrap. I dunno. THe press seems more do-able right now.
 
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