Pikuni Problems Warranty

I guess you can’t have it both way’s. In order to expedite the Pikuni to One Stop we broke our normal flow and the knives got routed where we lost our control of QC. A lesson learned from now on wait. We actually didn’t see a finished product until four days ago. We will never again rush an order to appease those in a hurry.
Because 80% of our returns due to customer tampering we are now adapting the industry standard as to warranty and tampering. Disassemble the knife void your warranty. Sorry but we tried to avoid this policy but it is becoming redundant and costly.
We are using a tattletale lock tight if it is broken then the warranty is void.

Christina Montero
 
Joined
Jan 20, 1999
Messages
738
Dear Christina:

I think your post shows frustration arising from quality control problems with the Pikuni. I have not perhaps reviewed all the posts, but at least one of those is responding in a strident tone. I hope I can avoid that, and especially not contribute to any unnecessary stridency. I too was anxiously awaiting the arrival of my Pikuni, although I did not want to create any undue rush. It is a great knife and sheath, one of my favorites,, although there are some problems with the blade on mine.

I am not sure how any warranty concerns regarding quality control problems on the Pikuni related to disassembly. Are people removing the handle slabs? Perhaps this comment is aimed mainly at your folders? In any event I take issue with the assertion that voiding the warranty upon disassembly is an industry standard. I only have one knife which states such a policy on the warranty. I do not recall if I knew this prior to purchase. In any event that is the only knife that fell apart, or if you will, disassembled itself. How would some tattletale loctite have revealed that the knife disassembled itself. This occurred after carrying the knife for a couple of months for tasks no more strenuous than opening an envelope or a package. The manufacturer promptly repaired the knife, but despite asking in my return cover letter, I was never informed as to why it fell apart. I thus wonder if it will happen again. I really do not want to deal with the issue and have not purchased another of this manufacturer’s knives.

Some of the knives I most prefer, came with the appropriate tool to perform the disassembly oneself. I much prefer this, although I have had no need to disassemble it, I rest easy knowing I could if the need arose. I purchased two more of this manufacturer’s folders, for a total of three more if you count a fixed blade.

I do not have a problem with REKAT charging the customer if the customer’s disassembly caused the problem, lost a spring, or just needed professional reassembly. I do not see why this would require voiding the warranty. I doubt that many customers would object to a reasonable charge to defray non-warranty returns. I am not sure that it would even be legally defensible to void a warranty because someone took off a handle and carefully replaced it, yet returned the knife because the blade had an improper heat treatment, or some similar scenario***. It certainly would not be good public relations. I would respectfully suggest that it would be a better policy to request a self -addressed address label and some dollars, to eliminate burdensome costs, than threaten voiding someone’s warranty. This way both REKAT and its loyal customers can be happy. After all, as a customer I do not want excess costs passed on to me, yet I would still like to rest secure with my warranty. [***Please note, the prior sentence was just speculation, and was not the result of exhaustive legal research!]

I have never had the urge to disassemble my green handled SIFU, #59. I do look forward to ordering another one, preferably with the combination of a green handle and D2 blade with black Ti coating, when they become available, without any undo rush. If this exact combination is not available, I imagine you will have one close enough. The Carnivore Cub in D2 sounds interesting too, since I do not have a smaller REKAT. Are they going to come with revised warranty language?

Speaking of D2 enhanced steel, my Pikuni came very sharp. The D2steel so far seems excellent, not that I have had any complaints about the steel in my current REKAT.

Thank you for your attention.

Donald.
 
Hey, I was among the loudest whiners regarding delivery times of the Pikuni. If you go look in the "Did someone say Pikuni?" thread, you will see that I'm not griping about a mis-grind on my Pikuni, although I do state, and believe, that it shows poor quality control. I now see that you weren't able to inspect them before they shipped to us (where were they ground?), so I can understand. And I read in that thread mention of tell-tale loc-tite and warranty voiding if it is broken. Now I see it here. I DO hope that this applies to disassembled folders, because if you're saying that broken loc-tite on the scale screws of a fixed blade voids any warranty on the blade grind, well.... that's unfortunate. I'll keep that in mind. :-\
wink.gif


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iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 12-12-2000).]
 
Christine and REKAT

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We actually didn’t see a finished product until four days ago. We will never again rush an order to appease those in a hurry.</font>

I am shocked that you would send out knives to customers that you haven't inspected yourselves for QC. As regards people being in a hurry - the only reason they we are impatient is because you gave an ETA that turned out to be erronous.

On 27 July Spark said Bob was "60 days out". On 10 August it was still
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"we will take delivery in about 60 days"
]http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000492.html
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000492.html </font>[/quote

It sound like you are holding us responsible for your not doing any - or enough - quality control. Perhaps you should just double any quote you think reasonable in the future to arrive at a realistic date?

I am amused by your revised warranty thing. My pioneer came with nothing like a warranty. In fact, it came with nothing at all, not even the belt clip which the web site said was included in the price. Nothing with the Sifu either.

I think your QC is fairly rough, which is OK by me if it's a few grind lines on a tank-tough folder. Not on something like this project though, which deserves all the care and quality you can muster.


On another note, I am also very curious about the "G10 laminate" on the carbon fibre scales. What exactly does this mean? The original post from 1SKS didn't make any mention of this:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The first 20 will have Carbon Fiber scales and the next 100 will have G-10. Serial numbers will go out on first come, first served. Again serial numbers 1-20 will be Carbon Fiber and serial numbers 21-120 will be G-10. Also the Carbon Fiber version will have a Satin finish while the G-10 version will be stone wash
(same thread as above)</font>

I ordered the knife on the strength of this description. I didn't order any G10 laminate - G10 is what I wanted to avoid with this piece. Although I haven't seen my piece yet - I'm really looking forward to doing so! - it could really defeat the object if the CF handle was obscured by G10. I'm also very curious about the satin finish.

LovE and strength

Kallisti.

[This message has been edited by Kallisti (edited 12-12-2000).]
 
Wait! Did that say stonewash on the G10 version? And satin on the carbon fiber? DOH! My G10 version sure as heck looks like every other satin finish blade that I've ever gotten. Parallel lines running from the spine of the blade to the edge. Sure as I'm sittin' here typing this! So... I would assume that there is at least one CF version that is going to have stonewash.
eek.gif
?

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iktomi
 
The warranty issue is on folders only. No other manufacture allows you to tinker with a knife or disassemble with out voiding the warranty, 80% of the repairs to date deal with that issue. We have always repaired or replaced knives that we were at fault with. As to this supposed big QC problem we are the lowest return rate with Blue Ridge Knives our biggest distributor.

As to the sharpinig line problem we were just made aware of it if you have one of these we will pay the shipping both ways and do it fast. The knives went to River City Sheaths ready to go Mike then shipped them to Mike Turber.

Not passing the buck Mike Sastre rushed them to Mike Turber and they were dusty, I spoke to Mike and he said he was sorry, but again we accept that responsibility as I ordered it done that way. This chopped 12 days off delivery to Mike Turber.

The D-2 Enhanced steel we used created some interesting problems our CNC contractor and blade grinder don’t have a kind word to say about it except it is very hard to grind and machine. Jeff Randle swears by the steel and we think once you start using it you will also. This all added time to the process and we are sorry for that also but that’s manufacturing.

Kallisti
We have always used the G-10 Carbon Fiber laminate and have never said other wise to my knowledge.

Christina Montero
 
<quote>"No other manufacture allows you to tinker with a knife or disassemble with out voiding the warranty...."</quote>

Chris Reeve's company does. They even supply the tool.

A blanket statement that disassembly voids a warranty is foolish at best.

I don't want a knife that I can't try and fix on my own. If I can fix it, bully for me! I learned and accomplished something and didn't have to do without my knife or bother the manufacturer for something trivial. If I break it in the process, charge me. I'm an adult and expect to be treated like one.

If you don't want people cleaning the grit out of the action of your knives, do it at the factory before you ship them. If you don't want people polishing the action or using a slicker lube inside your knives, make them right before they take the trip to their new homes. I can't remember how many times I've had to dis-assemble and clean my father's first model Pioneer or my Carnivore.

Unless you have purchased a proprietary color of Loc-Tite, you're delusional to think that it is going to be a tattle-tale for disassembly.
 
I strongly recommend you to revise the warranty to say, "If you take your knife apart and screw it up or can't put it back together properly, any repairs are not covered by this warranty," or something to that effect. I have read of countless REKAT owners taking their knives apart, smothing, polishing, and cleaning out the interior parts, thereby making the knife work better, and reassembling the knife properly without any problems. I don't see any reason not to let responsible, competent consumers service their own knives. And if they mess something up, they should have to pay to have it fixed. You're right that many companies do void the warranty for disassembly, but many people complain about it, because it's a silly stipulation. Charge those who screw the knife up, not the rest of us.

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
-----------------------
"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra
 
On the offense, I have to agree with some of the posts regarding rushing knives to the market to appease customers. It is obviously REKATS responsibility to make sure that all knives are reasonably defect free before they are sold to the public. It is an unreasonable excuse to say, "oh our knives aren't up to snuff because we rushed them to you because you were pressuring us..."

In addition, I think most of us understand that REKAT is a small company with sporadic manufacturing runs, and that they rely alot on "out of house" subassembly, and sub-contracts. Delays are an unfortunate reality. However, I think people would be a bit more patient if REKAT took the time to issue press releases, and announcements on a regular basis. Take the SE D-2 SIFU. It took forever to get an explanation of why the release date had been pushed back.

What's going on with website? It's been "under construction" for the longest time. Of course people with down payments on a REKAT knife are going to get a bit nervous when there are no stirrings at the company.

On REKAT's defense, I feel it is reasonable to void a warranty if particular knives are tampered with. Afterall, the springs and what-not in the "rolling lock", make it a bit more complex than the two slabs of titanium, and BG42 blade design of a Sebenza.

In addition, the exorbitant cost for a Sebenza is like an "extended warranty" or extra insurance that you are paying up front for future servicing.

Sure. Christina Montero made a "blanket statement" but on the whole she is correct. Most mass knife manufacturers (I'm not talking custom knife houses) do not warranty with tampered knives. This is probably for their legal protection too as to avoid product liability lawsuits.

P.S. ...so cut her some slack. Honestly, some of you guys can get a bit irritating by taking every quote, word, and syntax in a statement so literally. When she said "every knife manufacturer", anyone with common sense can tell it's an ambiguous statement and that she probably meant "MOST every knife manufacturer".

Life is not all black and white. Learn to recognize some shades of grey!


[This message has been edited by Full Tang Clan (edited 12-14-2000).]
 
Black-and-white statements should be taken as black-and-white.

Christina, I appreciate you guys doing your best to get the knives to us as fast as possible. Like I said, I was asking a lot of questions myself. But, I think that Full Tang Clan has a point, in that a little more communication regarding knives that already have down payments on them is called for. Heck, I ordered one custom, and was told it would be delivered in 8 weeks. Well, that 8 weeks turned into 10 months, but I was OK with it for the most part because I was able to call and find out what was going on, where it stood in the process, what the delay was, etc. Now I understand also that all you guys at REKAT that are involved in the forum have other FULL TIME jobs, but really, it doesn't take THAT long to put out a message and say, "Hey, we got held up 2 weeks in the process because we were waiting for Rob to get back from his hunting trip and approve the product." I managed to infer that from reading posts here and elsewhere that when Rob got back from a long hunt, the knife had been waiting for him for a while. No big deal. Things like that happen. But, it's easier waiting if you have some idea why you're waiting.

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iktomi
 
Let's take the issues in Christina's post seperately.

Item 1. The Pikunis had QC problems because REKAT was trying to get them to Customers faster and cut some corners.
My take on this is that REKAT is acknowledging a mistake and is prepared to make it right. I did not hear an excuse for not making things right just an explanation of what happened.

Item 2. REKAT is changing Warranty Policy on Folders and Voiding the Warranty if the Customer takes the knife apart.

This is the same Warranty Policy as Benchmade and I would be willing to bet that REKAT will at least match Benchmade's Unofficial Practice.
If you take it apart and put it back together correctly and there is a problem that is not related to that action: You are covered.
If you take it apart and screw it up: You have to pay to make it right.

Why do Companies like REKAT and Benchmade make Black and White Policies that if the Customer takes the knife apart the Warranty is voided and then make exceptions if the knife is assembled properly by the customer?

Because unfortunately they have to write Warranty statements for the lowest common denominator.

If they said as some have suggested "If you take the knife apart and don't put it back together properly your warranty is void." they would have to argue with every idiot that screwed up and explain why that was not the correct way to assemble the knife.

On the other hand if they say "If you take it apart the warranty is void." and then make things right anyway because the Disassembly/Reassembly was obviously not the problem they have a very happy customer.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
Christina, REKAT & fellow forumites ...

RE: G10 laminate Carbon Fibre

So what does the above term mean? I'm simply curious. As the G10 laminate wasn't mentioned in the original statement and I have not actually seen a CF handled knife yet (I plan to get a Cf Sifu at some point though), I don't understand what the term means. It's probably very simple. Anyone care to fill me in?

Cheers -

Kallisti.
 
Kallisti, the laminate has a base of G-10 and only the top layer is carbon fiber. You get the looks of Carbon Fiber at less cost..
 
Christina,
I want to confirm that REKAT will still repair a Rolling Lock even if it has been disassembled. The only difference will be that the customer will be charged. I know I have opened up my REKATS and suspect at some time in the future I will need maintenance.
(I polished the internals a little too much).
Will I be able to have repairs done at my cost through REKAT? Or am I stuck?
 
How about you charge to reassemble the knife plus parts. That way if someone takes it apart and can't put it back together you charge them to do it. Someone takes it apart and loses a spring, you charge reassembly plus parts. They take it apart to clean it because the action is bad, put it back together properly, and it is still bad, you fix it under warranty. I think that is fair?

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Brian
Here are the answers:
Spyderco native
Spyderco sharpmaker 204
Puukko
 
Thanks Rob - it's all much clearer now. Sounds good.

Now for the next million dollar queston - have the CF Pikunis shipped yet?!?


Kallisti.
 
CF Pikunis have not shipped as yet. If you have an order it will ship ASAP.

As for the G-10 Pikunis we also apologize for any inconvenience the QC issue may have caused. We are part to blame as we tried to get these out before Christmas and we pressured REKAT on that issue.

We have sent back a number of these and Chris has been very helpful in getting us back on track. In fact it has been a pleasure to deal with REAKT on any warranty issue we have ever had and to date that consists of only 3 knives out of over 1,000! That is a very low return rate folks and out Benchmade return rate is higher, much higher!

We are going through any remining stock at this point and I "Mike Turber" may regrind some edges to save time on knives going back. Heck I may even make some with combo edges if you want.

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I must be the onlyone here who loves their pikuni. As for mine I consider #'s 43 and 35 to be perfect! Using my calibrated eyeball even the grinds look perfect. Handles,sheath,everthing. Maybe I got lucky.Who knows? Anyway,thanks for the combined effort,and knife,
 
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