Question about properties of Talonite

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Mar 15, 2000
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I have three knives with Talonite blades. One small TNT, one medium recurve TNT (my favorite) and a Camillus mini Talon with the stag handles. My TNT's scare the hair off my arm but cut so so through paper. My Talon won't shave nothin but glides through paper. All of my Talonite knives MELT through meat. Anyone have ideas as to way this is so? Besides the fact that Tom can make his TNT's wicked sharp because sharpening is the third thing he does best. The first two are drilling holes and posting smiley faces. Maybe it has to do with bevel angle?
 
Yeah, pretty much a mystery to me too. We're sure to get following and welcome posts from the smart guys. I have 2 TNT's - one medium standard profile and a large recurve (my edc and favorite), a small Simonich blade, and also have a sweet knife from Neil Blackwood of Stellite. All have the same properties, that is to say they hold an aggressive edge for what IMO consider a long time, and continue to cut well even after they lose that perceived "hair popping edge". Never mind the fact that they just will not rust.

I prefer to keep an aggresive edge on mine, without stropping or refining the edge. This just works best for me.....
 
Scott - the reason why your Talon won't shave hair but will slip through meat and paper is the fact that Talonite has a matrix of carbides - which do the cutting even when the edge gets dull to the touch. This explains the reason why the knife won't shave but will still cut. There is also an added danger too. We are very conditioned to the fact that when steel feels dull, it won't cut. Period. Not so with Talonite. Therefore, if the conditions are right you can get cut by a "dull" feeling Talonite blade. Darrel Ralph told me one time that he has been cut more times working with Talonite blades than regular steel.
 
Scott :

My TNT's scare the hair off my arm but cut so so through paper. My Talon won't shave nothin but glides through paper.

Cutting ability depends on a combination of aspects, different materials put different amounts of dependence on the various aspects. This means that you can see the relative cutting ability change between two knives if you cut different materials.

Specific to your case in order for a knife to shave smoothly the edge has to be very well aligned. A high polish will help, but even a coarse edge will shave fine hair smoothly and free cut coarse hair (beard for example). On the other hand cutting paper, while also dependent on edge alignment is also influenced much more by geometry factors such as edge angle and width, gross blade shape if you are slicing the paper (edge curvature belly/recurve) and to a much lower extent primary grind angle and width.

If a knife is very sharp (edge is freshly cut and aligned) it will shave very well even if the angle is very obtuse, I have seen this on knives with bevels of 35+ degrees per side. However their cutting ability on most other materials is low because of the huge amount of force that must be exerted to mash this big wedge through the material. In comparison, an edge which is much blunter but has a much more acute edge angle can outcut the sharper blade with the obtuse edge bevel on a lot of materials except those that are only determined by the edge aligment and finish (shaving for example).

One note regarding shaving and paper cutting is that they don't exactly have standard meanings. If by shaving you mean that the knife is pressed a little into your skin and the blade is drawn in a slicing motion, that is a very different test of sharpness than with the knife barely touching your skin and using a pure push stroke. Similar with paper, it is one thing to do a smooth slice through paper, but quite another to do a complete push cut. In both cases the second versions are a level of sharpness at least 100% above the first, possibly more depending on the exact criteria used.

So short answer yes, you are probably seeing the effect of a better edge finish and alignment compared to a more acute geometry with a lower quality edge finish. You can probably get the Talon to shave quite smootly with a little stropping on CrO loaded leather. A smooth steel is likely to help as well.

Dexter Ewing :

Talonite has a matrix of carbides - which do the cutting even when the edge gets dull to the touch.

As do all cutlery steels.

-Cliff
 
OK, this is my take on it, and I'll preface this by saying this is strictly my opinion and is to be taken as such.

Most factory made blades are sharp. They have a fixed bevel and a generally rough edge, which makes them grabby and enhances the "illusion" of sharpness. Unfortunately that illusion quickly dissipates as the micro-serration's quickly wear/break off and you are left with a dull blade. That edge is the one that easily cuts paper, because it grabs it and tears as it cuts. They are VERY fine tears (breaking through the paper fibers a few at a time) so it all looks like a cut.

Most/many (who knows) custom knife blades are Sharp. The edge bevel is better refined with fine belts and possibly stone honing before the knife is shipped. This edge will cut extremely well, particularly things like rope, wood, paper, arm hair, etc. It's a great edge and will last a whole lot longer than any factory edge, because there are no micro-serration's to break off. Since the refined edge is actually a LOT sharper than the factory edge (even though the factory edge may FEEL sharper due to the micro-serration's), it is that hair POPPING edge you hear mentioned with good custom knives.

SHARP is what Tom puts on his TnT's. This is a wide, parabolic edge bevel that is highly refined in its finish. I use this on all my knives, and in my experience this is the best cutting and most durable edge available. What this edge does, besides cutting like the Sharp edge above, is to reduce friction through the cut. You can consider a knife edge to be much like a bullet, with the same ballistic qualities and needs in achieving penetration of a target. The nice thing about this parabolic geometry is that there is a very low amount of drag (friction) on the blade as it moves through the material being cut. Looking in only 2 dimensions, there is just the very edge itself and one point on the parabola. With a fixed angle bevel, that drag is all along the bevel and especially at the angled shoulder of the bevel, making the knife work harder to get through the material being cut. (This is actually one of the unstated benefits of a hollow grind when cutting SOME materials. In a fast cut, the sides of the blade may not even be touched by the target.) Low friction makes cutting easier, and makes the knife FEEL sharper than it might actually be. There is an added benefit of this edge, when you think about it a little. It is very strong, because it concentrates more steel just behind the fine edge. I've also found that because of its cutting efficiency, I can use steeper edge angles than you would use in a fixed bevel to get the same cutting effiency in most materials. This adds to the strength of the edge which in turn adds to edge retention as an added benefit. (Using this edge on an Ontario Machete, I've been able to chop down a large number of sapplings with considerable ease and still shave with the edge afterwards. I demonstrated this to some visting knifemakers while at the Blade Show. It's also why I can't keep an machete around the house for my own use. They walk off regularly.) A customer of mine bought his own small belt grinder to use for sharpening, and is now supplying (as Christmas presents this past year) a large part of South Texas with some of the best cutting machetes ever made.

The parabolic edge is achieved when the edge is pressed against a grinding belt, with the sharp portion trailing on the belt. Under tension, the belt deflects in a manner that creates a parabola (I think it's a parabola, but there are a whole lot of years between now and when I learned that stuff in school.)

On his TNT's Tom finishes off with a final polish/stropping on a medium felt wheel, giving that edge a level of refinement that makes it SHARP, SHARP, SHARP, rather than just sharp or Sharp. My TNT cuts better than any knife I've ever owned, and I go out of my way to abuse it.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it... :)
 
Its True
Talonite has cut me more than any other blade material. Knock on wood I dont get cut often ...but Talonite BITES me!
 
Jerry,
I have to agree with you on the edge that Tom puts on his blades. He sharpened my BG-42 Sebenza with the edge you described, and WOW!! SHARP!.

As for Talonite, and why it cuts differently through different media, I think Clif had some good info in his reply, though I think it would apply to all cutlery steels. Maybe he said that, but I missed it...

As for Talonites ability to keep cutting after losing its hair popping edge, I read somewhere that it is a function of the materials lubricity (did I just make up my own word?). It produces less friction when cutting through material.

Aloha
 
Hey Darrel! Watch out where it bites you! You wouldn't want to develop an attention deficiency problem like our friend from Hawaii - it could get pretty gruesome! :barf: :rolleyes: :p :D
 
With the cobalt substrate, are there any concerns about toxicity? I seem to remember reading somewhere about having to be somewhat careful regarding grinding cobalt alloys as the cobalt was pretty bad for your lungs. I know Rob S. made a nice looking chef's knife out of Talonite so I it must be alright under some conditions - does anyone have an MSDS sheet on it, or can comment?
 
Talonite is totally safe for use in the food industry. The Kellog Corn Flakes are manufactured using Talonite scrapers in the process. The dust is what you want to be carefull of!
 
BigHonu :

[what I said]

though I think it would apply to all cutlery steels

Yes, I should have clarifed that. It was a geometry and finish issue, nothing material specific.

As for Talonites ability to keep cutting after losing its hair popping edge, I read somewhere that it is a function of the materials lubricity (did I just make up my own word?). It produces less friction when cutting through material.

Surface friction is not a significant effect during most cutting. This has been studied in considerable detail, see for example the work of Dr. Norman Franz. Now a mirrow polished blade will cut a little better than a blade with rough grinds running *parallel* to the edge, but even a small difference in sharpness will easily outshadow the surface polish.

Jerry Hossom :

[rough edge]

That edge is the one that easily cuts paper, because it grabs it and tears as it cuts. They are VERY fine tears (breaking through the paper fibers a few at a time) so it all looks like a cut.

This is how all blades cut even the ones with a very high polish. Even buffed blades will show an uneven edge if you look under a high enough magnification, as all abrasives scratch the surface of the blade, the fine ones just do it at a level beyond the human eye. To get specific, when an edge meets wood (for example) the fibers at the contact point deform around the edge until they pass the plastic limit and then they rupture allowing the blade to pass through them. Now the thinner the edge, and the higher the polish the greater the pressure at a given force and the smaller the radius of curvature of the deformation in the fibers at the contact point and thus the easier and smoother the cut. This only applies however to pure push cuts.

In regards to production blades, most come with a buffed finish. All the high end blades production companies, Benchmade, Spyderco, Cold Steel, etc., come standard with a very polished edge.

As for which finish is superior, it has to be kept in mind both have advantages, generally polished edges are much better for push cuts and a lower grit finish will tend to slice better. In regards to edge retention, the larger teeth on the rough finish do cause more damage when they break off, but the ductility of the steel has to come into play here as well as issues like the gain in performance which can mean less blade work (number of slices) per a given task, which can give rough finishes a longer edge life in some situations.

There are as well combination finishes such as a rough belt and then a couple of passes on a buffer. Not enough to give a complete smooth finish, but raising the push cutting ability over that of the belt finish. I have used a number of blades from Ray Kirk with this finish and they handle a wide variety of cutting tests very well, which is to be expected given that he has won a number of cutting competitions.


-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
In regards to production blades, most come with a buffed finish. All the high end blades production companies, Benchmade, Spyderco, Cold Steel, etc., come standard with a very polished edge.

I would have to differ with you on that one, Mr. Stamp. None of my Benchmade knives came with anything near a polished edge, unless I misunderstand the concept completely. They were very "sharp", but certainly nothing near the polish I can get on the edge with just a quick strop on leather w/ polishing compound.

Now that I think about it, I'm obviously missing something on the concept of polished edges here. Probably should have just kept my mouth shut. Oh well... damage is done now....
 
Benchmade has pretty poor quality control from what I have seen, and there have been a lot of complaints about poor quality edges on their knives NIB. However the standard for high end production knives is a high polish, how often they actually achieve that is another matter. I have as well seen wild variations in the NIB sharpness of production knives.

Then again there is hardly uniform agreement on how edges should be sharpened by the custom knife makers either so a lot of variance will be seen in that area as well. In general the quality control is better for custom knives though as there are makers that will test every single knife before they sell it and will be very exact about the performance which is guaranteed.


-Cliff
 
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