Question for Les - Maddog not custom?

M

marco

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
148
les - why do you think that maddog knives are not custom knives? what makes them less custom than another makers knives?

marco
 
Because more than one person has their hand in making the blade. It's a small production shop. I think it's fair to say that if MD makes the special ones himself they would be custom. But the typical ATAK, TUSK, etc. are production knives with more than one person making them. This is my understanding, but I may be incorrect on this. I think this was discussed before somewere.
 
thanks cobalt - i'm still not understanding the difference. in a thread a while back on the maddog forum, maddog stated that his knives are "handmade". so, what is the difference between maddog and someone like RJ Martin or Walter Brend? RJ and WB do ALL of their own work, and NOBODY else helps? thanks for any clarification. what is the general consensus on maddog's blades - custom or not?
sorry if this has been asked before - i couldn't find anything on it with the search feature.

marco
 
The only part of a Mad Dog knife farmed out to someone else is the hard chroming. Kevin does the rest HIMSELF.
smile.gif


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The spirit grows, strengt is restored by wounding
 
There are other aspects besides the HC that are not done by MD. I think the blanks on the smaller knives are not done by him, and he has commented before that there are other people who do bandsaw and grinding work. You could post a question on his forum to get a complete answer about how the knives are made but I think Cobalt is pretty much correct.

-Cliff
 
MD commented on this himself in the following thread :

www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000707.html

I would assume from reading it that he has a small shop with a number of people in it and that the work is handmade but just not by one person. This obviously is not custom using the defination Les has stated (Guild version) as MD has other people doing some of the work.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 30 April 1999).]
 
What is a custom knife maker and when do his or her knives stop being custom knives, is a question that has been debated for years. I recently returned from a trip to Hawaii, visiting six different makers who make their knives completely. Some do send the blades out for heat treating. This question came up over there, too. IMHO, if a maker makes his own knife, it's a custom. If his son, daughter, or neighbor comes in the shop and cuts some bar stock, drills a few holes, etc., to help out the old man, are those knives that person messed with still considered custom? I think so. Otherwise, we might as well tell the makers they have to go back to the stone age. Ditto the use of pantographs, laser cutters, mills, etc. We're in the modern world now. Chris Reeve used to make all of his knives alone, but even after he moved to Idaho, I understand he was receiving bar stock that was pre-drilled from South Africa. Today he has 12 employees. Are his knives still custom? He sold them at Solvang, so maybe they are. Again, IMHO, I feel that when a guy has a helper that does more than just drill a few holes, he is now operating a small production facility. He may design the knife, but if others grind the blades, fit lock mechanisms, do the buffing or satin finishing, the end products are not custom, in the sense that one person made them.
 
This arguement about handmade or not is going to run forever unless we introduce a new definer into the description.

Let's consider using the term "SOLE AUTHORSHIP" to identify knives made, heat treated, and embellished by the individual who's is on the blade. If everyone could agree on this sort of designation the "handmade" question would become moot.

It would be necessary that any maker who depended on others to make that contribution to his or her work public when describing each knife.

On the public's part acceptance of the need to use outside heat treaters to get access to vacuum ovens and cryogenic treatment facilities in most cases is necessary to produce the highest quality product possible and is not a mark against the maker.

Other assistance such as cutting out of blades, drilling etc by family menbers is common enough that it should not be seen as a problem as long as it is acknowledged when queried.

I am willing to start it off now by admitting that I use an outside heat treater for a more consistant and higher quality product than I can produce in house, and my darling wife occasionally helps out drilling holes and sanding handles. Carol also takes all of my photos because I cannot afford to pay the prices for the so called professionals, besides I think her work is better.

Now that I have had my two cents worth I will go have breakfast.

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george

 
Bud, I agree with what you're saying, except for the Reeves part, since his knives are on an assembly line and he is not involved in the production of them. It does not matter to me since he makes an excellent product, anyway.
 
I agree with Bud. I do not consider it necessary for the maker to cut a blank or drill some holes. I have no mechanical ability (ask my wife), but I could cut a blank and drill some holes.

It is a fact that most makers of tactical knives (folders in particular) use some type of outside cutting for their blanks. Either, Laser, Water, or Wire. All this does is provide the maker with a blank. The maker still has to grind, heat treat, sharpen the blade and put the finish on it. Not to mention the handle material and guard.

We have already discussed Chris Reeve here at length. Chris is an excellent knife maker. He just doesn't do any work on his knives any more. His choice. Yes, the Sebenza is an excellent knife.

Chris is allowed to sell his knives at every show in the country except the Knifemakers Guild Show. As they expect the makers to do the majority of the work on each knife.

There is a movement in the Guild right now to redefine their definition of a custom knife.

There are literally thousands of makers around the world who do all the work on each of their knives. The majority of these makers are part-time and have another income source to support their families.

It is very difficult to make a living as a full time maker, or dealer for that matter.

So full time makers tend to view their knives in a more business like manner. Consequently, they welcome new technology that will allow them to produce a superior product, produce more of it and at the same time keep their prices affordable.

If it were not for this technology, most of us could not afford a handmade folder.

I will tell you that I do not know of one maker who has expensive folders ($800 and above)laser cut. These folders are all crafted one at a time by the maker. Which explains part of the cost.

Warren Osborne sells a couple different versions of his Police model (with the top liner lock). One has a LT under his logo the
other does not. This LT indicates to you that the parts were cut outside of his shop. The knives look exactly the same, except for the $125 differnce in the price tag! Guess which one he sells more of.

I think it's a great idea that Warren has. It allows the consumer the choice of either.

Just a question for the memebership, would pay an extra $125 for a folder that the maker cut all the parts as opposed to a laser? Note, the knives look and function exactly the same after Warren has done his magic with them.

Marco,

I keep getting conflicting reports as to what Kevin does and does not do. I will tell you that I personally find his knives to be poorly finished. Some of his smaller knives I found to be to heavy and thick, the word "clunky" comes to mind. If I knew the names I would tell them to you.

I realize I am in the minority, this is just my opinion. I will agree with most that the knives are built for heavy duty use. My main complaint with the knife is, once you start sharpening it you start to remove the hard chrome, at that point the O-1 is exposed. And that stuff will start to rust just looking at salt water.

Cobalt,

Your my hero!



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les :

I will agree with most that the knives are built for heavy duty use. My main complaint with the knife is, once you start sharpening it you start to remove the hard chrome, at that point the O-1 is exposed. And that stuff will start to rust just looking at salt water.
Click to expand...

When you buy a MD the edge does not have any HC on it. You don't need to sharpen it to remove it. However the effect of rusting is not as drastic as some people think if you bother to take some care to protect it. And of course there are lots of people that don't want a high corrosion resistance in their blades, its about the last thing I look for.

By the way, since you seem to be more interested in the combat knives with a lighter balance and other aspects you would be much better off looking at his combat class knives like the Shrike, the Panther the Saxxon etc. Why don't you just call up one of his dealers or Kevin himself. I am sure you would not have a problem getting one to look at.

It is not sensible to take his heavier utility based knives and say the quality is bad because they are not ideal for combat when the design is not focused on that. That would be like me saying that the Brend #2 is a poor knife because it is easily outchopped by say the TUSK from MD.

-Cliff
 
MD, CRK, and everyone else mentioned makes "handmade" knives even if they do involve some machinery. My little American Heritage dictionary defines custom as "1. Made to order or 2. Specializing in made to order goods." I think this puts MD out of the custom area and probably Chris Reeve for the most part. MD will make his knives any way you want them as long as you want them the way he makes them (to badly paraphrase H. Ford). The Reeves will do some customizing (engraving, embellishment) but try getting them to put another blade style in a Sebenza handle. To me this makes them handmade (benchmade if you prefer) but not really custom IMO. (A benchmade knife can be handmade or factory made [if different factories are involved].) I like the term sole authorship also if it is made entirely by one person. This is just my slant on the issue. To answer the original question- no Mad Dog's knives are not custom. Ask him to make you a ATAK out of ATS-34 because that is the steel you like and see what his answer is.
wink.gif
 
Les my darling, you should look above a granule of sand for your hero worship, hehe. Actually it is you who has done more to promote custom knives than most anyone, my thanks.

Cliff, do not get me started on Hard Chrome. You cannot fight what you do not see and you will not see the rust under the chrome if you happen to miss an application of protection(sounds sort of like having unprotected sex).
 
Cobalt, I agree completely. However that was not the critism that Les voiced. There is no HC on the edge of the MD when you get it, you don't need to sharpen it to remove it, and further it takes considerable exposure to rust if it is protected.

-Cliff
 
Mad Dog's knives are "Bench-made". (not to be confused with the prolific production cutlery mfr.)

[This message has been edited by Anthony Lombardo (edited 20 May 1999).]
 
I know I always seem to help answer for Mad Dog's produts, but I enjoy his stuff and have been to his shop and have an appreciation for his work. It by all means isn't for everyone, probably not even for most people, but some of his designs work well for me.

From what I saw first hand with my own eyes:

There were tons of barstock of 0-1 from Starrett(?) on a shelf. I do not know how they get cut into blanks. The heat-treating is all done in-house and one knife at a time. Kevin (and only Kevin) hand-grinds the blade down on a Burr-king type grinder. The knives are sent out to a local hard chrome person. They come back chromed. Kevin puts the final edge of the knives himself (yes, no chrome on the final edge). The sheaths are hand-made by either Kevin or one of his two employees. Actually I think it is just Kevin or one other guy that does it. Each sheath is made for each individual knife, they aren't pre-made. Then Kevin bags up the final product and puts it out to go.

The only time that I can see his stuff go elsewhere is for the blank cutting (I'm assuming) and hard chroming.


--Doug
 
Cliff, what you said makes sense. I actually saw a Mad Dog ATAK for the first time at a local gun show and was impressed with it's finish. Very well done and very ergonomic. Also very heavy. It definitely gives the impession of strength. I could not tell if there was hard chrome or not on the edge, but if he says so, that's the way it is.
 
Apparently I didnt get my point across as I wanted. I understand that there is no HC on the edge when you get the knife. The point I was trying to make was that rust will start to form underneath the hard chrome, eventually.

The ATAK is a good beater knife. I can see why people would want it.

My experience with O-1 is that it is not the best all around steel for a big knife. I prefer D-2.



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Havent we ALL been through this basic topic in about 3 or 4 threads???

Find your opinion and live with it. We dont have to agree, that is what makes it so fun.



 
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