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Randall Made Knives
- Thread starter FullerH
- Start date
Les Robertson
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Hi Hugh,
Because of the way Randall knives are currently produced, they would be refered to as a bench made type knife. This a type of knife that is between a factory and a custom knife.
So, the answer is no, they are not considered custom knives.
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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Because of the way Randall knives are currently produced, they would be refered to as a bench made type knife. This a type of knife that is between a factory and a custom knife.
So, the answer is no, they are not considered custom knives.
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Hi Les!
I wonder if the name custom knives also means that the knife is made to the customers specifications. So you can choose whitin limits how your Randall will look like. (e.g. choice of steel)I know of custom knife makers which also offer only their standart modells with your choice of limited variations. So I think the major difference is, that many people are engaged in the making of a Randall.
On the other hand some custom knife makers use laser-cutting-services and heat-treating-services too.
So while I agree with you that they are not 100% custom made, they are very close.
I wonder if the name custom knives also means that the knife is made to the customers specifications. So you can choose whitin limits how your Randall will look like. (e.g. choice of steel)I know of custom knife makers which also offer only their standart modells with your choice of limited variations. So I think the major difference is, that many people are engaged in the making of a Randall.
On the other hand some custom knife makers use laser-cutting-services and heat-treating-services too.
So while I agree with you that they are not 100% custom made, they are very close.
Les Robertson
BANNED
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Red Mag,
We have been down this road before on previous threads. The Custom in custom knives has come to define a particular group of knives as opposed to how the knife is made.
Yes, each knife that offers options could literally be called a "custom" knife. In essence (I know it's splitting hairs), but this is considered a "customized" knife. Much like what is done to firearms.
As a guidline I recommend that collectors/buyes contact the Knifemakers Guild and get a list of their rules. These rules outline what the Guild considers to be a handemade/custom knife.
No, this does not mean that only Guild members make custom knives. Randall Knives are Associate Members in the Guild. This status is reserved for those who offer for sale either knives or products that promote knifemaking.
So there is a difference more so than just they have many people making the knives. This is not akin to using a laser cutter. The laser only replaces the band saw. It is one piece of machineary replacing another.
More to the point, regardless of how you look at this we all know that Randall knives are not custom knives.
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
We have been down this road before on previous threads. The Custom in custom knives has come to define a particular group of knives as opposed to how the knife is made.
Yes, each knife that offers options could literally be called a "custom" knife. In essence (I know it's splitting hairs), but this is considered a "customized" knife. Much like what is done to firearms.
As a guidline I recommend that collectors/buyes contact the Knifemakers Guild and get a list of their rules. These rules outline what the Guild considers to be a handemade/custom knife.
No, this does not mean that only Guild members make custom knives. Randall Knives are Associate Members in the Guild. This status is reserved for those who offer for sale either knives or products that promote knifemaking.
So there is a difference more so than just they have many people making the knives. This is not akin to using a laser cutter. The laser only replaces the band saw. It is one piece of machineary replacing another.
More to the point, regardless of how you look at this we all know that Randall knives are not custom knives.
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hugh,
Bo Randall stopped making knives in 1939. The Guild formed in 1973. Randall Knives has never been a voting or probationary member in the Guild. Their construction techniques did not allow them to qualify. Consequently, they, like me, were allowed in at the Associate Memeber level.
Les
Bo Randall stopped making knives in 1939. The Guild formed in 1973. Randall Knives has never been a voting or probationary member in the Guild. Their construction techniques did not allow them to qualify. Consequently, they, like me, were allowed in at the Associate Memeber level.
Les
Thanks, Les. It matters not so much whether Randall is a custom maker or not, but do you know if they still have the high quality that they did back in the early days?
By the way, who was making the knives after 1939? In reading their blurb, I had assumed that Bo Randall was intimately involved up through the '50s and into the '60s.
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 27 April 1999).]
By the way, who was making the knives after 1939? In reading their blurb, I had assumed that Bo Randall was intimately involved up through the '50s and into the '60s.
------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh
[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 27 April 1999).]
Cobalt
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- Dec 23, 1998
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- 17,708
Fuller, even though the Randal may not be a custom in the pure sense, it is one of the few that is actually forged and that is more than many customs do.
Fuller, also take stories about Randals breaking as part of the fact that there is so many out there and they have been around a long time. I bet if you were to take a ratio of the breaks to the number produced it would be very good. Also, just because one breaks does not mean they all will. I would never say that a Randal is better than a Brend if I saw a Brend break, conversely I would never say that a Brend is better if one Randal broke. I would, however, trust forging over crypo any day since cryo is still being argued as to how much improvement it offers.
It also depends on the thinnes to the tip of the knife. Give me any 1/8 inch stock and I WILL break it by putting it in a vice and using my hands without a bar.
Fuller, also take stories about Randals breaking as part of the fact that there is so many out there and they have been around a long time. I bet if you were to take a ratio of the breaks to the number produced it would be very good. Also, just because one breaks does not mean they all will. I would never say that a Randal is better than a Brend if I saw a Brend break, conversely I would never say that a Brend is better if one Randal broke. I would, however, trust forging over crypo any day since cryo is still being argued as to how much improvement it offers.
It also depends on the thinnes to the tip of the knife. Give me any 1/8 inch stock and I WILL break it by putting it in a vice and using my hands without a bar.
Hi, Cobalt. Remember me, I was the one in Chicahiro's thread defending Randalls. I know that my two are "Hell-for-strong" and would depend upon them for any use I might have for them. I only was interested in the history of the make.
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
Les Robertson
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Fuller and Cobalt,
It is obvious that you are loving owners of Randall knives. You are intrigued by their history.
However, they are from an era passed. The steel they use was incredible in 1939 when Bo was making knives.
However, in todays era of better steels, 440B is a second class citizen.
Also, brass guards, come on. Brass will take no beating at all in the field. Again, in the 40's brass was used because steel was rationed.
Dont get me wrong, I have owned over 75 Randall's. There was a time when I thought that was as good as it gets too. However, my education did not stop there. Which was fortunate for me. As I saw too many Randalls break or fall apart while I was in the Army.
By the way, I still love the Randal 1 design and the model 14 with the border patrol handle!
Les
It is obvious that you are loving owners of Randall knives. You are intrigued by their history.
However, they are from an era passed. The steel they use was incredible in 1939 when Bo was making knives.
However, in todays era of better steels, 440B is a second class citizen.
Also, brass guards, come on. Brass will take no beating at all in the field. Again, in the 40's brass was used because steel was rationed.
Dont get me wrong, I have owned over 75 Randall's. There was a time when I thought that was as good as it gets too. However, my education did not stop there. Which was fortunate for me. As I saw too many Randalls break or fall apart while I was in the Army.
By the way, I still love the Randal 1 design and the model 14 with the border patrol handle!
Les
Les, we've been down this road before! Your knowledge of Randall history is "again" inaccurate! Bo Randall made his first Model #1 in 1943 so how could he have quit making knives before he made the first of his most famous design? Again, I'm not arguing the point of whether Randalls are custom or not, just your flagrant use of incorrect historical facts. Please consult Bob Gaddis's book on Bo Randall or call the Randall Shop before you throw out dates and circumstances. Does the word "perjury" come to mind. You admitted to me once before in a previous thread that you were not a Randall schollar, but a few months have passed and you may have forgot. You have the right to defend the industry of "Custom Knives" and you do it well, but not to the denigration of all other knives other than "customs." Remember, you have the power to influence the rest of us accurately or inaccurately, but you will influence us regardless!
Now, buy the Gaddis book, sit in a corner and read it and I will give you a pat on the head and a cookie! By the way, glad you were reinstated for I know of few who have the passion for your segment of the knife industry.
Bruce Woodbury
Now, buy the Gaddis book, sit in a corner and read it and I will give you a pat on the head and a cookie! By the way, glad you were reinstated for I know of few who have the passion for your segment of the knife industry.
Bruce Woodbury
Cobalt
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Les, I actually do not own any Randals and at 75 you could open up your own Randals store. Maybe 440B and C(they also use C since they like to stick near 1% carbon) is not the high tech stuff that is available today, but in a larger blade it's extra ductility is needed. By the way 440B/C has more impact resistance than ATS, and 440V, so it is definitelly a good steel in a big blade. Forging only makes it even better.
My only point is that they are one of the more popular knives in the Military and survival field of the last 20 years and as such are more subject to hard use than others. You won't find to many Brends in use all around like you will the Randals. Which is better, I really don't know, but one comparative failure does not a thesis make.
Fuller, this is not arguing in any way, just a good discussion. However, since the Randal is not a custom, this thread actually does not belong in here anyway.
My only point is that they are one of the more popular knives in the Military and survival field of the last 20 years and as such are more subject to hard use than others. You won't find to many Brends in use all around like you will the Randals. Which is better, I really don't know, but one comparative failure does not a thesis make.
Fuller, this is not arguing in any way, just a good discussion. However, since the Randal is not a custom, this thread actually does not belong in here anyway.
Cobalt
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Fuller, I agree.
Bruce, might it not have been better to rationally provide corrections to the Randal history without attacking Les. This discussion has been good until now and I think that Les was making statements based on his memory and not reading literature that you may have handy. If you want to give us a quick lesson, that is fine, I would enjoy it, but lets keep the fighting out of here.
Bruce, might it not have been better to rationally provide corrections to the Randal history without attacking Les. This discussion has been good until now and I think that Les was making statements based on his memory and not reading literature that you may have handy. If you want to give us a quick lesson, that is fine, I would enjoy it, but lets keep the fighting out of here.
Les Robertson
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Bruce,
I base my information on a quote directly from Tom Clinton out of Illinois. Who is probably the biggest Randall dealer and collector in the country if not the world.
It could be when he said Bo stopped making knives in 1939, he meant as a daily job. Im sure he continued to make knives for his friends on occasions and for the LT. that brought him the Number 1 design.
The point I was trying to get across when I said he stopped making in 1939 was that he was not involved day to day making knives into the 1960's like some people think.
So it's not perjury when you are quoting someone you believe to be an expert in the field. I belive that Tom Clinton qualifies as that.
Hugh, Bruce and Cobalt, I didnt take anything was written personally. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I was a little stressed about the read the book, eat a cookie and get a pat on the head! LOL.
Yes, there are many more Randal's in use around the world than Brends. However, this is because they had a 40 year head start on Walter. And I would hazard to guess they produce more than a few more than Walter does.
Also, I can attest to the fact that Brends are used all over the world by both US and military men of other countries. 101st Airborne, 82d Airborne, Delta Force, Special Forces, Navy Seals, Marine Recon, SAS, GSG9, French and Dutch Commando's and a couple of other groups have purhcased Brends from me. I have sold Brends to them. Not to mention several Federal Level Law Enforcement organizations.
Just because Walter doesnt get alot of press doesnt mean people dont know about his work.
As far as the steels go, I think there is probably a metalurgy guy out there. RJ Martin front and center. I belive that the CPM steels have greater wear resistance because of the High Vanadium content in them.
As far as one failure, when its for real, one failure may be to many. The Randal 14 that broke was owned by a fellow Infantry Captain in the 82nd Airborne. We were at Northern Warfare School, temperature was -30 when we started to build our shelter for the evening.
We were cutting ice blocks for our Igloo (i guess you could call it that, fortunately we had our cold weather sleeping bags). When trying to raise the ice block out the tip broke off. Now under circumstances that the average civilian, hell even the average military man/woman, would be in this probably would not be a problem. However, when it's you and your knife at 9,000 feet -30 degrees the sun is going down and the temp is droping. This is not the time for your gear to fail.
Someone made the comment comparing cryogenicly treating blades as opposed to forging blades. Well at that point, this young Captain had him a Walter Brend Model 2, 8 1/2" of cryogenicly treated D-2 steel! Becuase he was from the 82nd and I from the 101st, I had to taunt and insult his stupidity for not purchasing a Brend. This of course went back to the grief he gave me when we first started the training for being so stupid as to spend $500 for a knife. After all he owned a Randal the best tactical knife in the world. Which he paid only $225 for. When the knife broke I looked at him and told him "$225, well I guess you know what your life is worth."
I then proceeded to cut out every block necessary. Without so much as a scratch on my Brend.
I brought 3 Brends to the School with me. I sold all of them. Even one to my fellow captain. Of course he paid $550 (the extra $50 was stupidity tax) I made it up to him, I paid for dinner in Fairbanks when we got back. Dont laugh, you ever bought dinner in Fairbanks. I thought the Cayman Islands were expensive.
Any way as Cobalt so astutely observed, Randal's are not custom and therefore should be discussed elsewhere.
Bruce, I look forward to you sending me a copy of the Book by Gaddis. Let me know if you need my adress. As for cookies, chocoate chip or Oreo's will be great.
Hugh, no apology is necessary.
Cobalt, yes one failure does a thesis make, when human lives are at stake. Thank you for insights into forging and steel.
Thats one of the great things about this country, you buy whatever you like! Even if it's wrong. LOL
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
I base my information on a quote directly from Tom Clinton out of Illinois. Who is probably the biggest Randall dealer and collector in the country if not the world.
It could be when he said Bo stopped making knives in 1939, he meant as a daily job. Im sure he continued to make knives for his friends on occasions and for the LT. that brought him the Number 1 design.
The point I was trying to get across when I said he stopped making in 1939 was that he was not involved day to day making knives into the 1960's like some people think.
So it's not perjury when you are quoting someone you believe to be an expert in the field. I belive that Tom Clinton qualifies as that.
Hugh, Bruce and Cobalt, I didnt take anything was written personally. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I was a little stressed about the read the book, eat a cookie and get a pat on the head! LOL.
Yes, there are many more Randal's in use around the world than Brends. However, this is because they had a 40 year head start on Walter. And I would hazard to guess they produce more than a few more than Walter does.
Also, I can attest to the fact that Brends are used all over the world by both US and military men of other countries. 101st Airborne, 82d Airborne, Delta Force, Special Forces, Navy Seals, Marine Recon, SAS, GSG9, French and Dutch Commando's and a couple of other groups have purhcased Brends from me. I have sold Brends to them. Not to mention several Federal Level Law Enforcement organizations.
Just because Walter doesnt get alot of press doesnt mean people dont know about his work.
As far as the steels go, I think there is probably a metalurgy guy out there. RJ Martin front and center. I belive that the CPM steels have greater wear resistance because of the High Vanadium content in them.
As far as one failure, when its for real, one failure may be to many. The Randal 14 that broke was owned by a fellow Infantry Captain in the 82nd Airborne. We were at Northern Warfare School, temperature was -30 when we started to build our shelter for the evening.
We were cutting ice blocks for our Igloo (i guess you could call it that, fortunately we had our cold weather sleeping bags). When trying to raise the ice block out the tip broke off. Now under circumstances that the average civilian, hell even the average military man/woman, would be in this probably would not be a problem. However, when it's you and your knife at 9,000 feet -30 degrees the sun is going down and the temp is droping. This is not the time for your gear to fail.
Someone made the comment comparing cryogenicly treating blades as opposed to forging blades. Well at that point, this young Captain had him a Walter Brend Model 2, 8 1/2" of cryogenicly treated D-2 steel! Becuase he was from the 82nd and I from the 101st, I had to taunt and insult his stupidity for not purchasing a Brend. This of course went back to the grief he gave me when we first started the training for being so stupid as to spend $500 for a knife. After all he owned a Randal the best tactical knife in the world. Which he paid only $225 for. When the knife broke I looked at him and told him "$225, well I guess you know what your life is worth."
I then proceeded to cut out every block necessary. Without so much as a scratch on my Brend.
I brought 3 Brends to the School with me. I sold all of them. Even one to my fellow captain. Of course he paid $550 (the extra $50 was stupidity tax) I made it up to him, I paid for dinner in Fairbanks when we got back. Dont laugh, you ever bought dinner in Fairbanks. I thought the Cayman Islands were expensive.
Any way as Cobalt so astutely observed, Randal's are not custom and therefore should be discussed elsewhere.
Bruce, I look forward to you sending me a copy of the Book by Gaddis. Let me know if you need my adress. As for cookies, chocoate chip or Oreo's will be great.
Hugh, no apology is necessary.
Cobalt, yes one failure does a thesis make, when human lives are at stake. Thank you for insights into forging and steel.
Thats one of the great things about this country, you buy whatever you like! Even if it's wrong. LOL
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
OK, Les. Since this is a discussion only, I have a question. You say that you have seen "too many Randalls break or fall apart" while you were in the Army. You then discuss one incident, the same one that you had discussed before. Are there any others that you can cite? Up to now, I had never heard of a Randall knife failing, so I am interested. I will admit that I am 56 and my awareness of Randalls grows from the late 1950s and early 1960s.
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh