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REKAT Lock Durability?

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Apr 18, 1999
I was wondering if anyone has had long-term experience with a REKAT product using the rolling lock and has the lock worn to the point where verticle blade play developed.

The reason I ask is I have a Carnivore and Pocket Hobbit. The Carnivore is a replacement generously provided to me,at no charge, by REKAT after my first Carnivore developed vertical blade play. When I discovered the blade play I called REKAT. When discussing my problem with a REKAT representative, he asked where the "button" rested in the slot on the scale. I told him it was all the way up against the scale near the knife's pivot. He then said it sounded as if there was no room for further adjustment and that I should send them the knife. I then received the new Carnivore.

This conversation has me wondering about the duarbility of the lock if the knife is used heavily. Hence my question to forum members. Any thoughts or comments?
It's funny how noone has responded to this one. I guess threatening law suits actually works. Doesn't change what people really think though.

Jim McCullough
By the way Willie,
You May want to check out Escalator/Gunting thread above this one. It may have some "enlightening" info for you.
And Anthony, I'm doing my best to recruit new "members". Here Willie, drink some of this. It's good for you.
Hunter, Thanks for the direction. I had no idea my concerns were so common, controversial, and, perhaps, well founded.

In your aside to Anthony, you mentioned attracting new "members." If it isn't too personal, what did you mean?

Thanks again,

No problem Willieboy,

If you read the thread, you will see me talk about being "enlightened". Anthony made a joke about the Jim Jones/Guyana tragedy Kool Aid incident. I was just continuing his joke.

Take care,

Jim McCullough
I owned a Sifu for about a year and it never had a problem with the lock wearing. I am a Flick-a-holic and have worn out many a knife in no time (ask Dexter). The Sifu always locked up solid and the button didn't creep towards the pivot. Overall fit and finish can be spotty, but I got a good one and loved it.

Good luck,
I've been banging a SIFU around since last BLADESHOW. Its held up very well...with no vertical play. Easy to use lock. I've been impressed.

Stay Sharp!
Will Fennell
Camillus Cutlery
My sifu seems to have too much wear room. When I open it the slide moves all the way back and touches the back of the handle and can move no farther. The blade is only 4/5ths open at this point and the last fifth feels a little tight as the blade rubs against the lock. If I pull the lock back all the way to let the blade fall out, it doesn't open fully without touching the lock bar again towards the end of the motion. When locked the switch is centered behind the middle of the cutout. Maybe this is the way all of them are, I have never handled another. This is an awsome knife though, just a tad more than my 710 but so much more knife.
I must be pretty fortunate since I haven't ha problem with any of my four REKATS. I have two of the Bladeforums red/black Carnivores, a Pioneer and a Carnivore Cub.
All of them locked up tight without any problems. From where I sit the Rolling Lock is problem free. Sorry to hear about the problems everyone else is having.
No problems here either. I love both my Sifu and Carnie, and have been considering Cub. Great, great folders!

If i had to chose one tough azz piece, out of my whole collection, to use everyday...it would have to be my REKAT PIONEER II TANTO. The knife has proven itself time and time again. Once I epoxied the stop pins, and broke the action in, it has been awesome ever since!

Steve in nYC

What we do today in life...echoes in eternity...
Every man dies...not every man lives...
Owning a couple of REKAT's rolling lock knives and having built several rolling lock knives I can say it is a great lock. It will never be as smooth as a liner lock, but is certainly plenty strong. I like it better than any lock that I have experiance with.
CPR, Will and Generallobster, I can tell from your response, you understand my question and concern. I was afraid I would be unabale to describe, in words without pictures, my concern.

I guess I'll relax and use the knife without worrying about undue wear on the lock. It would make a really ugly knick knack anyway, or so my wife says.

Everyone, thanks for your responses.
[Jim :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I guess threatening law suits actually works.</font>

There is a huge bias in regards to how positive and negative comments on blades are handled by certain makers/manufacturers. In regards to REKAT if you go back in their forum you will see how negative comments and questions about them were handled. They were either ignored, or attacked. Compare this for example to problems people have had with HI khukuris and how Bill Martino has dealt with them, and how the posters were treated in the forum.

How a product behaves is one thing, and of course an important one. However how problems are handled are much more important. For example I dented up a RCM from Livesay on hardwoods. We discussed the issue, he never made an excuses or dodged the issue when I asked him if the performance was expected and he gave me a full refund. Net result, while I don't consider the blades what I need I would not hesitate to recommend them if someone was considering them as Newt stands behind them and is frank about their abilities.

Compare this with the discussion that took place when I asked if the results of a piece of work someone (Rage) did was to be expected :


First Bob Taylor writes it off as unscientific and won't say if it is expected for the lock to fail under those conditions or not. Later on he says though that it isn't the expected behavior - but then Bob Brothers shortly after says it is because if applied far away from the piviot the thrust could have generated over 1000 in.lbs of torque. When I asked for clarification about this because he was contradicting Bob and saying something that I thought was impossible given the handle length he didn't anwer.

Or compare it to how Sal Glesser and Bram Frank responded to me stating that I can white knuckle the compression lock on the Gunting . What I got were a serious of positive emails seeking to clarify hand position and such.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Doesn't change what people really think though.</font>

To some extend it does, I know of people who will not comment on REKATs products because of the accusations and attacks they have recieved in the forums and in email, this is why for example Andy Wires sent me the two Escalators instead of commenting on how they functioned after they were serviced. Others will keep posting but have really changed their stance becuase of pressure. While people who have been around can see this for what it is - anyone who joins after it happens obviously doesn't get the full picture.

Of course, it also has to be mentioned that some people will do anything that they can to attack a product when they have vested interest in promoting another. It also should be mentioned that the methods and tactics used to accomplish this only shows the "worthiness" of both the product and the people involved.

In a seperate matter; regarding the science, or lack thereof, behind any testing, the facts speak for themselves. Spyderco did testing on the Rolling Lock and they stated it was the strongest lock they'd (then) seen. Subjective testing, like whacking with a mallet, is *not* scientific, sorry. Failure to return a damaged or defective knife does not indicate a problem with the manufacturer or the product - and pointing to an intentionally damaged product does not indicate a flaw with the product itself.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem here. People can flap their arms about and claim that the sky is falling, but that doesn't make it true. You can try to blow an insignificant problem out of proportion, and turn it into a bigger problem with the manufacturer, but that again isn't science - that's creating problems to fit the results you want. Most of the problems I see here, Cliff, are ones that you've created - and if REKAT fails to rise to your bait it isn't a problem with them. This "evidence" is shaky at best - and deliberate misdirection at worst.

If someone has an axe to grind, be a man and just come out and say so - don't skirt around and pretend like you are being altruistic or detached. Speak your mind clearly and let's solve the problem - and make the attempt to solve the problem. Nothing irritates me more than to see the same people making the same claims over and over again without even bothering to solve a problem or correct their claims when proven wrong. I'm sick of seeing people targeting an honest company in a twisted way to get their own results achieved.


Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
I have found the Rolling Lock to be very durable and secure..
We must remember these are folders not fixed blades..
Any issues or concerns Ive had with Rekat Bob Taylor has been more than helpful..
I don't know what going on and chances are, it's better that I don't.

To answer the original question, I do have a REKAT Carnivour. Mine has a vertical blade play so minute that it can be felt, but not seen. Of course, I did unfairly abuse it.. Hardly scientific of course, impressive enough to me. To date, the Rolling Lock remains the most secure single lock system I've experienced so far.
Well, once again I didn't want to get involved with this BS but here goes.

Interesting quote, Spark: "Of course, it also has to be mentioned that some people will do anything that they can to attack a product when they have vested interest in promoting another. It also should be mentioned that the methods and tactics used to accomplish this only shows the "worthiness" of both the product and the people involved.

With just a little checking I can state this as fact:

If one were to search posts by an individual named Spark you would find some interesting things;

1) As administrator, Spark post alot. Easy huh?

2) As administrator, most of Sparks' posts are in the 1SKS, Service & Support,and Community center forums. Makes sense.

3) As Spark the poster/forumite his highest number of posts fall in: #1 REKAT forum, #2 Practical Tactical & Auto forums (tie) and then Knife reviews & Testing. This may be subject to change as I checked this last week.

4) If one were to check the total number of posts in each forum you would find a total muber of posts for each forum & a total number from Spark.

a. REKAT: 3439, Spark: 59 that's 1.7%
b. Practical Tactical: 11,059, Spark 58 that's 0.5%
c. Automatics 14,012, Spark: 58 that's 0.4%
d. knife reviews: 19,855, Spark: 43 that's 0.2%

For comparison lets check:
a. Himalayan: 14,926, Spark: 0 that's 0%
b. Spyderco: 8,627, Spark: 7 that's 0.08%
c. CSSD/SC: 8,673, Spark: 7 that's 0.08%
d. Balisong: 7,682, Spark: 2 that's 0.02%
e. Shop Talk: 12,634, Spark: 4 that's 0.03%

I could continue to bore everyone here with more facts (provided they don't get changed by the Admin), but hey let's let the facts stand for themselves.

I would encourage anyone remotely interested to read some of Sparks comments in these threads. I think one might see a pattern. I ahve no problem with you posting where you wish Spark, but when you seem to take up for a certain group at the expense of others, assisted by your "Administrator" status, it rubs me the wrong way.

You like to talk about agendas, WHAT IS YOURS, SPARK? There are very few posts by any of the REKAT staff as of late, but you seem eager to step in & keep us updated. Why? I don't see this happening on other forums. Is it possible that you have financial ties to REKAT, you do design their website & get paid for it don't you? I am not going to sit here & trash REKAT or the Roling Lock, it works for many people, it didn't work for me. The problem is (like Cliff said) that when a complaint comes up the poster get's put through the wringer. All anyone has to do to check that is to search past REKAT threads. Funny though, the owners of REKAT are usually backed by you.

I'm sure that you can prove me wrong with your "FACTS" or just say that I have an agenda. I guess I do have an agenda, when my integrity is called into question because of a legitimate complaint, I do get defensive. If now, I choose to give you a hard time, Spark, hey so be it, I guess you should ban me (like a certain dog used to do). I know we don't see eye to eye, Spark but just as you question my intentions, I most certainly question yours.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Subjective testing, like whacking with a mallet, is *not* scientific, sorry.</font>

The reason that you do rigid controlled testing is to allow prediction of real life use which depends on the aspect you are measuring. If you can not do this, then there is little value in doing the controlled study. Except of course to give you a promotional tool.

Not to mention of course that the statistics claimed by REKAT for the rolling lock exceed the abilities of any human being to have ever exist. On the webpage for the Pocket Hobbit it states : "The REKAT Pocket Hobbit redefines lock strength by taking over 1000 pounds on its' Rolling Lock[tm] without failure."

The simple fact is, scientific method or not, no matter how Rage did a pressdown, he could not come near 1000 lbs of force. If the lock was really as strong as stated on the webpage then it is simply not possible for it to fail in the way it did.

However the fact is that the lock was not tested with 1000 lbs of force. And the fact remains that even 1000 in.lbs of torque another often claimed limit, was out of the range for Rage to exert as even his max weight thrust would have needed a 4.5" distance from the piviot which would mean basically at the point at the very end of the handle. This is impossible as there is no way to grip the knife in this manner.

As for what in.lbs actually mean, Sal Glesser had a nice writeup on exactly this in the Spyderco forum awhile ago. It was concerning the functional limit for in.lbs of torque. What is required for what and that sort of thing. The kind of strength levels for the different folders they have and some comments on what would be expected for a "fighting" knife. It is far from impossible to know what kind of strength you need to various uses - which is a good thing as it is what a knife maker has to be able to do to design a functional knife.

On a related example, recently in the Survial forum it was commented that an older Busse blade chipped out on a coconut. I asked on the Busse forum if this was the expected behavior of the A2 blades. Very quickly Andy Prisco commented that it was not. When I discussed this with Busse later on he said the same thing. There was no excuse about coconut chopping being unscientific. Why not? There is easily as much variation in stress on the edge chopping a coconut as pressing down on the handle of a folder?

The same direct attitude about dealing with performance issues can be seen with Strider, HI, Buck etc., and many custom makers . None of them avoid questions about their blades.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Failure to return a damaged or defective knife does not indicate a problem with the manufacturer or the product - and pointing to </font>

There were several reasons given by the people who didn't return their knives. Either they had some limited function in their existing state or they simply didn't have any confidence in the customer service. And Andy Wires did return his and it was returned with several flaws. Pretty much supporting the argument as to why some faulted blades were not returned.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">an intentionally damaged product does not indicate a flaw with the product itself.</font>

Depends on how it was damaged. I can intentionally have a 1095 blade rust extensively by leaving it exposed to salt water. Does this show a flaw in the blade - well it shows that it rusts readily. Some will obviously consider this a flaw.

However this was never even the argument made against REKAT, by me anyway. I have never said "Rage broke a Rolling lock - therefore the lock is weak." My problem has always been not with the results of the tests themselves but with how they were responded to by REKAT.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If someone has an axe to grind</font>

Again showing your very strong bias Spark, how are you concluding that there is some motive behind the posts. Simply because of their negative content. This violates one of the fundamental laws of scientific logic.

As well Spark, you and Mike have a history of entering into threads about REKAT, making claims and or attacks to antagonize the posters into attacking and/or then locking the threads before the people you are making statements to refute what you say. The last thread I started about the Gunting for example :


And why don't you defend the other companies with the same zeal that you speak out for REKAT. I recently posted up a review of the Machax from BK&T and it contained many negative elements, fit and finish issues, steel dents up and chips out on wood, handle is too slippery etc. . There are no posts by you in any of the threads about it.

I also discussed the performance with Will Fennel, he also never made any comments about unscientific methods of testing nor attacked me for being biased. We just discussed the performance and he clearly stated the expected behavior (not what I saw) and openly stated that the warrenty covers the problems I had.


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-12-2000).]
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