Sal, How about a Civilian Trainer ?

A

AG

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Jan 2, 1999
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Hi all and Sal,

I think it is only natural that Spyderco will produce a Civilian Trainer (same as the Gunting has - Red G10 with false blade).

I think it is only fair to do so for a knife design that has been around for so long and gained alot of popularity as a self-defence tool, long before the Martial Blade Craft series has been born.

What do you say ?

What other options do we have to practice with a civilian ?

Thanks

Added later:

I am probably going senile as I searched the old archive and found this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1147800#post1147800

Here is a quote from Sal's post:
"...We still make the Civilian in limited quantities. Black G-10 handle, ATS-55 Steel, single steel liner for clip screws. Comes with a zippered travel case.

We're planning a "trainer" with red G-10 handle.

sal..."

Well ? Did we miss it or should we still wait for that trainer to show up ?

Thanks again Sal..
 
Maybe we could have a Matriarch trainer - after all, it could use the red Endura trainer handles, which would make it easier to make. The blades on both folders are similar enough that owners of either one should be happy.
Civilian or Matriarch trainer, it doesn't matter: I'd certainly buy one (or two).

Leo
 
Train with a live one. Live on the edge...

no, seriously, i think that a civi trainer would be a good idea, but an endura trainer would do nicely. just remember that you have limited thrusting with a civi and concentrate more on the hooking.

I train with applegate-fairbaine plastic/rubber daggers. if i want to practice civi moves, just dont thrust.
 
Great idea on the Matriarch trainer. The less expensive components would put it within reach of a lot more people. Might even get hawkbill owners buying them.
 
Hi. We did have a trainer planned. Made a prototype and showed it in New York Knife and SHOT Shows. Unfortunately, we didn't get sufficient positive response to warrant the tooling and inventory costs.

The Matriarch might have better shot, but we'll have to wait a while and monitor sales and response to the Matriarch model before making a trainer for that model. Making them is fun, but there has to be a sufficient customer base to warrant the production and inventory costs over another model. We're still evaluating the sales of Endura and Delica trainers, which are not that great. At this time, making trainers is still a "labor of love". We have few models like that. We think they're great to make and have, but we have to sell them in sufficient quantities as well. We're a buildin' and a hopin' for a future market.

sal
 
If it would help, I'll buy more than one Matriarch-based trainer. It would be a good compromise in meeting the needs of those who use Civilian or Matriarchs. I have an old molded trainer made from a Civie,but a genuine Spydie trainer would be a must-have!

And while we're on the subject of curved blades in Endura-handles...let's not forget the concept of a Harpy-XL !!!

Brian
 
Hi Sal,

I am not Spyderco marketing expert but how can you get a real market response to a product (in this case - a Civilian trainer) according to one knife show ?

Anyone who knows Spyderco and their Civilian knows that alot of those were produced and sold (tufram G-1, tufram ATS-55, G10 ATS-55, Carbon Fiber ATS-55 and maybe some other combination I am not aware of) - my estimate - Thousands of Civilians are out there !

With such a big customer base I am sure that a market for at least few hundreds of trainer is promised. The Civilian (along with maybe the Police model) is one of the only Spyderco models which is purely a self-defence knife, James Keating dedicated an entire instruction video to the Civilian and many many carry and swear by this knife.

As a trainer is mainly intended for self-defence training I see no other knife than the Civilian (in SPyderco line) that deserves a trainer version.

I dont see why it should be such a procedure to manufucture a trainer. DO it in Golden, CO - based on the G10 version - use red G10, use GIN-1 steel (in my mind if it's more economic use whatever cheap steel you like - AUS-6, Sandvick etc..) do all the necessary steps on the blade besides sharpening it and defining a killer point.
 
AG,

I think you're correct that NY may not be a representative sample. However, I can see Sal's point about the economics. People at my academy pay $200 to join and average $80-110/month in dues. However, most think I'm crazy to pay the price of a Gunting trainer. Most of them took a lot of convincing before they bought Endura trainers. That's why I like the idea of a Matriarch trainer so much. It would be very close to a Civilian in dimensions and function, but the FRN handle would undoubtedly be a LOT cheaper than a G10 Civilian setup. (Of course, I'd still buy the Civilian trainer if available---so I can't really disagree with you.)
 
Hi AG. As Dances mentioned, economics do count. We cannot make a few hundred. We have to tool up and make a few thousand. If the sales numbers are not there, then the burden of the cost of sitting on inventory of a very expensive slow moving item is a problem. To make a Civvie trainer, with G10, etc, will cost almost as much as a Civilian. I'm not saying not possible, just saying we need more input to make the decision to invest the time and funds into a Civvie trainer as compared to another model. We cannot make all variations of all models.

Hope that helps.

sal
 
My question is why are the drones so much$$$, The Gunting drone is the same price as the "live" one!:rolleyes: It would make more sence too just buy 2 live ones and dull one! You could always re-sharpen it at a later date!
Todd
 
Hi Todd. Working Drones have everything that the live knife has in terms of parts and labor, so cost is similar. The drone is ground differently so it's full thickness as the edge. This is far safer and different than just "dulling" one.

sal
 
Originally posted by TODD1
My question is why are the drones so much$$$, The Gunting drone is the same price as the "live" one!:rolleyes: It would make more sence too just buy 2 live ones and dull one! You could always re-sharpen it at a later date!
Todd
Click to expand...

Originally posted by Sal Glesser:
The drone is ground differently so it's full thickness as the edge. This is far safer and different than just "dulling" one.
Click to expand...

Speaking as someone who has converted a few Spyderco Enduras, I agree with Mr. Glesser. Until Mr. Glesser could have his hands on one of my altered Enduras, he would not really know to what length I went to in order to make a Live Endura into a Trainer [Drone].

It is ALOT of work and MOST people will not go through that amount of work to make a Live knife SAFE. I'm going to qualify that by your own remarks Todd, when you say this;

It would make more sence too just buy 2 live ones and dull one! You could always re-sharpen it at a later date!
Click to expand...

In order to make a Live knife into a Trainer, you have to remove so much steel that you could never really turn it "back" to a functional Live Blade. For example, with an Endura...almost 3/4 of an inch is removed first of all from the point alone. On the edge, you lose a 1/4 inch or more of steel.

Once the edge is completely ground off and the area is flat, and the point is gone and nothing remotely resembling a point exists, I take the Endura on a large [bench] whetstone and a whole lot of oil, and I take that flat edge and I round it over along with the point.

The result when finished is, the entire blade is as smooth as a bar of soap. You take so much steel off, you could never return it to Live Blade Status. It would be a piece of junk at that point.

Since I'm serious about my Training, especially with deployment - Immediate Action Drills, this is a MUST. But not many people will take the time to make a completely safe Trainer as I have in times past.

Now, the Endura and Delica are offered in Training versions, there is absolutely NO BENEFIT whatsoever for me to go through all of the hard work anymore to alter a Live Blade to Training Blade Status.

When I was altering them, it was because I had to, not because I wanted to. And I altered them correctly, which is something alot of people would throw up their hands in disgust half way through and say, "This is good enough, screw this, this is like work!" That's because of the amount of tempered steel you have to remove and then smooth it entirely. It is quite a task if done correctly.
 
Sal and Don are right, of course. I'd rather buy my trainers from Spyderco any day, instead of going through the trouble of making my own. The similarity of prices between drones and the "real thing" is more than understandable too.

BTW, Don, congratulations on your site. Lots of good info there.

Leo
 
I just got my Gunting this morning and Damn this thing is sharp!! I'd still be scared to use it even if it was dull!,A trainer is now own my "to-get" list!! Man what was I thinking!!,sometimes the easyist way isn't always the safist way!! Thanks Sal,Don!!
Take Care!!.......Todd
 
The Gunting is incredibly sharp right out of the box. It has a point that is so frightening, it will pierce like a needle. Effortless. It really is a nice package.

The Gunting Trainer is every bit as much of a tank as the Gunting itself. They are both tough as nails. In other words, when you plunk down the money for the Trainer, rest easy, you're not wasting your money. It is every bit the high quality item the Gunting is itself.
 
Man Don your arn't kidding about the point on these things,I now have a nice hole in my leg from just "slowly" tring to open on my leg to get a fell for one it engauges on something and Damn!!!! Like everyone's said before don't EVEN think about tring it!!! Thanks for your thoughts Don!!......Todd
 
Todd,

Oh, you did the Classic Gunting Boo-Boo Dude. That's what the Trainer is for. Don't open those Live Guntings on your body unless you like sutures. :D

Get the Trainer, you'll find it every bit the sturdy tool the Live Gunting is.
 
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