School shootings....

[Daniel Koster]

They're kinda getting under my skin....


Something's bad wrong with our way of life here in the USA that such things can so easily occur.

I'm not going to point a finger of blame.


But I AM going to be much more alert while I am on campus now!!!



Incidentally....I DO have a plan in mind should such a thing occur in MY school. Not saying I wouldn't freak out too...but I have thought through many scenarios...and have come up with some "tactics".





What about you guys? Ideas?

(easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback...but let's not say how WE would have handled it...let's hear the things YOU would like to do to be PREPARED should such an act occur in your area)


Dan

 

[mymindisamob]

I think about this many times daily. I work as the district carpenter for our school district, and I work on being aware at all times.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

I'm long out of school, but when I was in school, I carried, very discretely, every day.

There were plenty of incidents on my little campus and surrounds which justified my actions.

My sister was caught in a race riot. My sister's room mate was shot on campus. My room mate was robbed at an ATM just off of campus.

The only thing which can stop a random, active shooter is direct confrontation with force. This has been proven time after time.

Andy

 

[raythebigfoot]

I am all for concealed carry but carrying on campus to me is out of the question. The chances of there being a shooting are still very very slim, but the chances of you getting expelled from school if word even leaks out that you carry a gun on campus is 100%. To add to that there would probably be charges brought against you as well. Even if you lawfully used a concealed weapon on campus for self-defensive my guess is you would still get expelled. At my university you get kicked out of school for getting in a fist fight on campus, much less carrying a weapon. I did on the other hand always carry a legal knife, but I don't see that doing much defensively against a shooter. It's not that I disagree with carrying guns on campus personally, but the problem is there are way too many immature students to justify the carrying of guns. So in this case the cost:benefit ratio of carrying against the law is not beneficial enough in my opinion. If you got caught it could literally ruin your life because you may not be able to get back into any college after that.

To the main point though I think the best thing is to be alert to your surroundings and always know your ways of escape. I always sat by a window in my classes just in case I quickly needed to break it and hop out of it. I wish I could say that taking a defensive position against a shooter would be a good idea, but without being able to carry or unless you just got lucky and you were able to jump him/her while they were reloading the best option would probably be just to get the hell out of there at the first sign of trouble.

The plain and simple fact is that even if you are 100% tactically prepared there may not always be a good chance for a good outcome. That's unfortunate.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Dan isn't a student. He's the professor. It's a different level of responsibility, one which our current laws generally make more difficult to assume.

Unfortunately, legally gun-free zones are practically shooting galleries for people who won't respect that law.

Arming the potential victims does not mean arming everyone, just allowing those old enough and responsible enough and willing to be armed in their own right outside of the campus to do so on campus as well.

But until the attitudes - and the laws - change, there's not much hope in most places to carry. Maybe this can change if enough lawsuits attack the schools and the local laws for failing to provid security while forbidding the people to carry their own security instead.

 

[raythebigfoot]

Dan isn't a student. He's the professor. It's a different level of responsibility, one which our current laws generally make more difficult to assume.

Unfortunately, legally gun-free zones are practically shooting galleries for people who won't respect that law.

Arming the potential victims does not mean arming everyone, just allowing those old enough and responsible enough and willing to be armed in their own right outside of the campus to do so on campus as well.

But until the attitudes - and the laws - change, there's not much hope in most places to carry. Maybe this can change if enough lawsuits attack the schools and the local laws for failing to provid security while forbidding the people to carry their own security instead.

Sorry, I knew Dan wasn't the student but I was more replying to Andrew's statement above. Just didn't put the quotes there. For the most part I wouldn't mind profs carrying guns, but at the same time the law does not permit it as Esav noted above--as well as I'm not so sure it would help all that much. How many would really carry given the choice? and campuses are such huge places someone could kill dozens of people before anyone really new what was going on? I think this is one of those unsolvable things where the only way to solve the problem is to get rid of the crazy's that are doing it in the first place. Unfortunately that will never happen.

I still stand behind being ready and aware of your surroundings as the best choice. It wouldn't hurt if schools would mandate bullet proof doors on the classrooms well that could be locked from the inside. That way if a shooting occured at least everyone that was in a classroom could be somewhat safe. That would at least minimize casualties.

 

[raghorn]

We do active shooter drills in our schools several times a year (without staff & students present).

 

[Diamond Dog]

The only thing which can stop a random, active shooter is direct confrontation with force. This has been proven time after time.

Andy[/QUOTE]

I tend to agree with this statement.

I also agree that the gun free zones are plain ridiculous. The average law abiding citizen will follow the laws. The person doing the illegal activity/harm will do the harm regardless of what the law states if they are set on doing it.

I also do not believe in making more gun laws and making it harder to obtain a legal firearm, because again, the person doing the harm will get the means to carry out their intentions one way or another.

 

[BlazenGem]

It is quite a scary thing, really.

There are kids in our school that give people the feeling they might lose it one day and shoot people.

I think its best to just run off. You wont have a good chance going against someone with a gun, who are going to kill themselves in the end anyways.

 

[mete]

Schools are notorious for trying to hide campus crime. They also do little to prevent it. The Virginia Tech shooter had previously set a fire in the dorm , yet was not immediately thrown out of the school.

 

[mkhop]

We do active shooter drills in our schools several times a year (without staff & students present).

Raghorn I will assume the we you refer to is the police and IMHO this is a good thing , not including staff and students is not such a good thing.

I would hope that schools are instructing students to do something besides cowering in the class room. I think resistance is a poor first choice but might just be a final option . GTFOD is a wise first choice especialy if there were a exit from the classroom that did not put the people into the line of fire, like running out into the halway.

I imagine when they put up the profile on the shooter we will find that many knew he was a time bomb but the proffesionals did not want to offend or violate his rights.

 

[mapper66]

The only thing which can stop a random, active shooter is direct confrontation with force. This has been proven time after time.

Andy

Arming the potential victims does not mean arming everyone, just allowing those old enough and responsible enough and willing to be armed in their own right outside of the campus to do so on campus as well.

But until the attitudes - and the laws - change, there's not much hope in most places to carry. Maybe this can change if enough lawsuits attack the schools and the local laws for failing to provid security while forbidding the people to carry their own security instead.

The first quote is right on. The 2nd quote is why it won't happen. I believe the political climate will be edging even further away from there being any "hope".

By the way, I am a CCW holder and support the right of everyone "old enough and responsible enough" to carry where they feel the need. Case in point, I cannot carry when I drop my two year old daughter off at daycare, and this is the time I feel I need it most.

Sorry Dan, don't want to get this off on a political rant. All the tactics you may employ are less than desirable when you are unarmed and facing an active shooter. The best tactic would be to be armed.

My thoughts and prayers go out to those affected by the shootings.

 

[Tballetta]

Being armed at school will not stop these events from occuring. Being armed and present when one occurs is highly unlikely. I am a concealed weapon advocate but this is not the answer in this situation.

Awareness is the best defense.

 

[wayne37]

Up here ( Ontario ) it is already being used as another reason for Liberals to crow about gun control ! I believe that every citizen that meets certain requirements ( firearms training ) should be allowed to CCW . There is a new organization that is aining a lot of momentum up her ( Canadacarry.org ) I think at least one armed citizen could have turned the table and lives could have been saved !

 

[mapper66]

Being armed at school will not stop these events from occuring. Being armed and present when one occurs is highly unlikely. I am a concealed weapon advocate but this is not the answer in this situation.

Awareness is the best defense.

Never said it would prevent them, but I guarantee you it has more preventative value than 'awareness'.

It's highly unlikely to be present and armed at any shooting scene. Does that negate the value of carrying at any time? Besides, Dan has asked about tactics to employ if this occurs at his school. Probability does not enter in to the equation. My position is that it is best to be armed, yes?

 

[adorable_harree]

These kids' parents and peers are the ones to blame...but first and foremost everything begins in the home and on your up bringing...

We can argue all the way to christmas on how we can prevent and escape situations like these but the best prevention is not to breed anymore these kinds of people who can do this to their fellow men.

 

[Coldwood]

In my opinion, too many Americans have chosen to become fat, dumb and happy about their lifestyle. Too many choose to put their heads in the sand about the threats of the world, and the world is not now, nor ever has been, a safe place. But they egotistically choose "political correctness" and "gun free zones" to support their attitudes and force everyone else to follow their New Age sensitivities. As others have said, a gun-free zone merely provides a gunman with a target-rich environment; it doesn't make anybody safe.

I think it is literally a crying shame to subject our children, young university students and innocent people in a shopping mall or town hall to a killing spree by a crazed gunman. All for the sake of having a politically correct gun-free zone. We could do better by offering them a "protected zone."

On May 15, 1974, three PLO terrorists took over a school compound in Maalot, Israel. When it was over, 25 children and others were dead, 66 wounded. The Israeli response was this:

"Teachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip without armed guards. The Police involved the citizens in a voluntary civil guard project “Mishmar Esrachi,” which even had its own sniper teams. The Army’s Youth Group program, “Gadna”, trained 15 to 16-year-old kids in gun safety and guard procedures and the older high-school boys got involved with the Mishmar Esrachi. During one noted incident, the “Herzliyah Bus massacre” (March ’78, hijacking of a bus, 37 dead, 76 wounded), these youngsters were involved in the overall security measures in which the whole area between North Tel Aviv and the resort town of Herzlyiah was blocked off, manning roadblocks with the police, guarding schools kindergartens, etc."

When happy US citizens finally realize that there are a lot of people in the world who would like to kill us, we may start to take a more sensible approach.

 

[Noshtero]

Ok.. I graduated from NIU 3 years ago. I had many classes in Cole hall where the shooting took place, so I have a very specific frame of reference on this.

I will tell you, right here and now, that there was NO WAY that it could have been prevented short of armed guards at every door to every building. The shooter came through the stage entrance to Cole and opened fire into a sea of heads. Cole is standium seating. Your body is blocked by the head of the person in front of you and so on and so forth. If you were firing a gun from the stage, it would be damned near impossible to miss. After opening up on the crowd, the shooter killed himself.

Ok... so I really appriciate everyone who thinks how they would have saved the day, or been more alert, or whatever. But in this situation, I don't know how a member of the audience could have saved anyone. I guess some quick draw artist who sits through class each day with the finger on the trigger of his concealed hand gun could have popped the dude after he started shooting. Maybe he only would have shot 10 people instead of 18 before you got him.

The bottom line is, as much as people don't want to admit it, and I'm sure I will get flamed here for saying it, but the bottom line is this. If someone has it in their mind that they're going to do something, you aren't going to stop them.

Awareness on campus? Worthless. Trust me, a guy with a hand gun in his pants can be standing 5 feet from an armed cop, and if he whips that gun out and starts shooting, is almost garaunteed to empty his clip before the cop shoots him. That element of surprise can not be prepared for. They talk about this all the time on the Practical Tactical forum. Somebody comes in and starts talking about "what's the best knife for knife fighting" and people laugh at him because most stabbings take all of 2 seconds and the guy that got stabbed never even sees the knife.

Awareness to the fact that this kid was screwed up? Worthless. For every screwed up kid that goes on a rampage, there are problem hundreds more that write disturbing poems, and don't kill anyone. You can't just lock up every kid that draws a picture of a dead person, or tortures an ally cat. In 6 months you'd have every jail cell and every therapist office full with a line of a hundred kids outside.

Adorable Harree said it correctly. The fault in this lies in the parents. Understand your damn kids already! You know if your kid is screwed up. If you don't know it, you're ignoring the situation. Is your kid depressed? Do they get picked on in school? Are they loaners? Do they laugh much? Smile? Cry? Figure this crap out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT before they cross a line they can never come back from. These parents that say "He seemed like a happy kid, we had no idea" make me want to bash my head against the wall. There is nobody who's so slick as to hide everything from a parent who makes it their priority to know their kid. The parents who claim they had no idea are, plain and simple, oblivious. They were too busy jetting off to that meeting to hear that their kid gets picked on every day at school. And how about this? If you're too busy to devote the time to your kids then DON'T HAVE KIDS! You wouldn't buy a car you couldn't afford right? Then don't have kids if you can't afford the necessary amount of time.

Sorry for the rant, but this one hit really close to home. I haven't been able to get in touch with all my friends that still attend NIU, but I wouldn't be surprised if I knew a couple people that were in the room when it happened.

 

[mapper66]

Dan started this thread by making an observation about the state of things in America today and asking about tactics to employ if such an occurrence were to happen at his school. At some level he doesn't feel safe at his place of employment, probably with good reason. Right now he has to make less than optimal decisions about how to change that as he can't legally carry on campus.

I live in a beautiful part of the country, Western North Carolina. Got a 6600' mountain out my back door, and lots of public lands around to get out and enjoy, and I like nothing better than doing that.

Like Dan and his workplace, I feel less than safe there sometimes. Recently, an older couple was brutally murdered here at a trailhead I have used, and then later, a girl just out of college was murdered by the same man, all of this on our public lands. I can't carry there, even with my CCW. The state has seen fit to make those places I can't carry.

Recently, a pack of wild dogs pulled down a deer in my neighborhood, and last week, I was coming home from a hike and a deer ran across the trail 25 yards in front of me. One of the dogs was on it's tail. Good thing it wasn't the whole pack. I've got a 2 year old daughter that I walk those same trails with. I carry bear spray. I'd feel better with my .45.

Black bear frequent the area and my neighborhood (have to keep my trash in the garage, they love to knock over trash cans outside), and in 2006 a child was killed and partially eaten in a predation attack by a black bear on public lands near here.

All of these places I can't carry, even though I have had my mental health evaluated, my criminal background checked and rechecked as part of the process of getting my CCW.

To those who want to argue that a handgun wouldn't have made a difference to Meredith Emerson, or the older couple that was killed here, or the victims of VaTech or NIU (I know multiple students and Profs at VaTech, and I wish they had had the option of carry), or myself when I have to defend my daughter from a pack of wild dogs that the city won't do anything about, that's fine. I've heard it all before. Maybe you are right, but we don't have any way to know that, do we? Hope this has given some food for thought, I'll leave the discussion to others now as I have nothing else of value to add.

 

[Jeff Clark]

If you prevent 8 out of 18 people from getting shot you may have saved 8 lives. That is very worth doing. The point is not to prevent anyone from getting shot, it is to reduce the number who get shot. At New Life Church in Colorado Springs the volunteer security guards did not prevent all casualties, but they did limit them and prevent the shooter's escape.

Back at the time of the Columbine shootings my son's high school had a contingency plan that included having select teachers opening up the arms locker and breaking out the shotguns. When you are located in the Air Force Academy school district you aren't quite as much sitting ducks as up in Denver.