Steel handle models made better than FRN?

C

Carl64

Joined
Apr 3, 2005
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I have been getting back into super-duper-sharp knives again, after a period of collecting classic folders. I dug my Delica out of storage, and not much else can beat it, so off I went to the Salt I, Rookies, Natives, and Enduras.

I like FRN Spydercos for their weight, feel, and shape, but as I have complained about before the parts aren't so perfectly fit.

But the steel handle models (Delica, Endura, Native II, Rookie) I have all seem to be better fit. The blade position is usually closer to being perfect, and the lock bars are more consistent in their open/closed positions. The "blade play" is also better (ie not as loose) on stainless models. The only FRN exception is the Salt I, but I only have one so I don't know for sure. The difference between a Native II with a steel handle and a FRN Native III (both made in Japan, AUS10 and VG10) as far as fitting of parts is obvious, and the US-made FRN Native is even further below the stainless model.

Why is this? Considering the work involved in grinding a steel handle vs. molding FRN, the steel Delica is usually not too much higher in price than I would expect just from the handle material. Is this just what happens with FRN handles, or is it chosen to be this way?
 
I don't think the FRN can be as tight as the stainless handled ones as far as the lock pin and pivot pin are concerned. There has always been more blade play evident in the FRN handled knives I've owned. The stainless look and feel better finished and more refined to me but they have their draw backs too. For one they get pretty cold if you work out of doors in the heart of winter and they are almost too smooth to grip when trying to extract them. I would venture to bet that more stainless models get dropped than FRN ones as a result of this.

The best of both worlds would be a stainless lined handle with some textured wood handle like the kind of work that we used to see on gun stocks where they were checkered by hand. That would be very unique and very classy in my opinion but I like wood and natural handle scale material over the FRN/Zytel, G10, Micarta or other such choices.
 
STR-

I agree on the FRN benefits, which is why the whole thing is such a dilemma for me. I only like steel handles for the overall appearance. I think FRN would be a better choice for a working knife even if it were to cost MORE than a steel handle.

The only thing I can think of is maybe it's harder to do well because the pins fit against the washers, and then the washers against the handle, instead of the pin fitting directly to the handle as with a steel handle.

In another thread I have suggested a steel handle with FRN inserts, which I think would be great.
 
I agree with what has been said here. The SS models are seem better constructed bc of the simple fact that SS is more solid than FRN when it comes to the pins and lockbar not having any give. I still prefer the FRN models for the grip and weight, blade steel, shape, and grind. I think they get the better construction in those areas. SS models with FRN inserts would be cool.

Overall, I think it may be time for another overhaul of the Endura/Delica line, just for the sake of newness that Spyderco is getting known for. I'd also like to see them come on a series of colors. Not just yellow for visibility like the salts, but also lime green, bright orange, light blue, purple, maybe even bring back the pink. Or some interesting color blends like Benchmade does on the Ares G10.
 
JediKnight86 said:
Overall, I think it may be time for another overhaul of the Endura/Delica line, just for the sake of newness that Spyderco is getting known for. I'd also like to see them come on a series of colors. Not just yellow for visibility like the salts, but also lime green, bright orange, light blue, purple, maybe even bring back the pink. Or some interesting color blends like Benchmade does on the Ares G10.
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Heck yes. I like bright, "happy" colors. I'll take bright pink, orange, blue, green, and I don't really give a d@&$ what anyone else thinks about my froofy-looking knife because I like it. I don't buy knives to wear to funerals.

I am going to get the blue ZDP189 Delica when it comes along, but it looks like it is darker than I would really like.

It seems to me that having different colors of the same knife is a good way to get us to buy more than one of the same thing too. That's common business strategy. 2 alka-seltzer (plop-plop fizz-fizz, remember?), 2 boxes of arm&hammer (one in the fridge, one in the freezer), are we catching on here Spyderco? How many of us have money in our pockets just begging for an excuse to get another knife?
 
It would be an interesting project to cut open an FRN knife and make titanium liners for it and a new titanium spacer bar for the lock spring and then just reuse the old FRN sides for scales. Then you would pretty much have the best of both worlds available commercially I guess.

The only problem I see is that it still may not have the same 'tightness' as the factory jobs in the pivot area but it could be close or better too for that matter. For me personally it makes more sense to step it up to some exotic wood handle scale rather than reuse the old scales but I'm sure it could be done using the original FRN handle. (probably has been done actually.)
 
Carl64 said:
Heck yes. I like bright, "happy" colors. I'll take bright pink, orange, blue, green, and I don't really give a d@&$ what anyone else thinks about my froofy-looking knife because I like it. I don't buy knives to wear to funerals.

I am going to get the blue ZDP189 Delica when it comes along, but it looks like it is darker than I would really like.

It seems to me that having different colors of the same knife is a good way to get us to buy more than one of the same thing too. That's common business strategy. 2 alka-seltzer (plop-plop fizz-fizz, remember?), 2 boxes of arm&hammer (one in the fridge, one in the freezer), are we catching on here Spyderco? How many of us have money in our pockets just begging for an excuse to get another knife?
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Exactly! Haha. Maybe if we get enough of us to "petition" for these Mr. Glesser might do it.
 
STR said:
It would be an interesting project to cut open an FRN knife and make titanium liners for it and a new titanium spacer bar for the lock spring and then just reuse the old FRN sides for scales. Then you would pretty much have the best of both worlds available commercially I guess.

The only problem I see is that it still may not have the same 'tightness' as the factory jobs in the pivot area but it could be close or better too for that matter. For me personally it makes more sense to step it up to some exotic wood handle scale rather than reuse the old scales but I'm sure it could be done using the original FRN handle. (probably has been done actually.)
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That would be an interesting aftermarket project. I wouldn't know how to begin doing that, hehe, my knife building knowledge is limited. Though it would be illogical for a production model since the whole point of an FRN Spydie is to be the best and simplest knife for the money.
 
Well, that may be true about the FRN. But for some like myself who can't own a knife without doing something to it to "personalize it" modifying them just happens.

I like my new Salt 1 that I redid the handles on after doing away with the original FRN handle. It just has an old time nostalgia to it now offering the best of the new and the old in one knife. But I'm kind of old fashioned like that. Probably why I like restoring old 50s trucks I guess. The thought didn't occur to me to do the same kind of handle rebuild using the original FRN sides until this thread though.

I may have to try it just to see if it can be done that way using the original FRN as scales on a future project.

Anyway, you can see my Salt upgrade from start to finish here if it interests you.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14971
 
Wow! That's a nice job. I wish I could do that...

But doesn't having wood scales kinda defeat the purpose of a salt-water proof knife?
 
You must not have read the link to the info on the wood. I used Lignum Vitae wood. Not just any wood but a wood used for marine vessels going way back in history. It has been used for sail boat floors, beams, drive shafts for boats in modern times, bushings, block and tackle pulley wheels, and more. Most always it was the preferred wood for any underwater application because of it's natural lubrication ability and the fact that it was impervious to rotting or decaying. It is said to be virtually impervious to water because of it's natural oils and resins inherent in the wood, which prevent it from ever drying out. Unfortunately these same resins make it very hard to use when glue or epoxy is needed.

It has a long history of being used in sea faring cutlery as well as other tools for handles also because it did one thing other woods didn't do. It held up and lasted around salt water. It resists rotting, chipping, splitting and splintering better than most any wood you can use. Chances are if I dropped the knife on a beach that the wood would still be there along with the titanium and the blade when found regardless of how long it sat there. The only parts that would suffer would be the stainless parts.

I believe I read somewhere that lignum is still used to make the gavel for judges to this day from the traditions brought with the sailing explorers. Among other things it is a traditional 'spirit wood' believed to have healing properties for several ailments.

Lignum is also the heaviest densest, strongest wood on the planet. Lignum weighs over 80 pounds per cubic foot. It is triple the hardness of oak. It is known by several names also but lignum vitae is the one I'm most familiar with. The name "lignum vitae" means 'long life'. Gayaiacum officinale is another name for it which is Latin for "tree of life", or 'wood of life' and I think in some countries it is referred to as "Iron wood". And in others as "Palo Santo". All names mean something to do with how long it lasts though.

Anyway that is the history of the wood I chose in a nutshell.
 
I like the idea of titanium liners. On my meerkat, the steel liners however, add weight (not that big of a deal to me really, i dont notice it) but it does not seem to have any better (less) play than my calpyso jr. However, the lock fits a little bit better on the meerkat, but this does not seem to effect performance. My dozier also has signifigant play. When i look at this play, on all three, i notice that it is not due to a loose pin (except maybe a bit on the meerkat) as much is it is the frn flexing in front of and behind the pin. I dont see this as a problem though.
 
Carl64 said:
I like FRN Spydercos for their weight, feel, and shape, but as I have complained about before the parts aren't so perfectly fit.
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Even the Byrd stainless ones are tighter than the Spyderco FRN's. This may just be one of the drawbacks of FRN. Even with this I would still pick it readily over stainless in that class of folder.

-Cliff
 
I would have thought the difference would be obvious. The SS handles are ground which should be more precise than molding, and the material has less give, whch allows for higher pivot tension and more accuracy. Makes me wonder what you expect an FRN handle to be. To me it is a lightweight, cheap and practical alternative. If I want a more rigid handle and want to spend the money for it, why would I go with FRN. If you go with more complicated manufacturing where you can not mold the FRN but have to machine it, you might as well transition to G-10 or Mircarta.
 
Truthfully you can peen the end of the pins of any FRN knife and tighten things up if you wanted but what you gain in lack of blade play you will lose in snap when you open and close the blade. There is a happy medium that has to be achieved with the FRN handle where you have that good snap when closing it and just a minimal amount of blade play which should not change under normal use conditions.

I have noticed in shops where you can play with the knives before purchasing like at the A.G.Russell store in Arkansas, that same make knives have different feels and smoothness. Some have more play than others and that is why I like being able to hand pick what I buy over mail ordering them.

To some, any blade play at all is too much blade play though and for these folks an adjustable pivot may be the only real way to satisfy them. Even in the stainless versions of these knives there is just a tad of movement sideways so without a screw type adjustment I don't think you can have it to where there is zero play in the blade and even when you have zero play you have to then struggle to open the knife blade which is a pain in itself.

If zero blade play is an absolute must it would seem to me that a fixed blade is in order for EDC. Even my high dollar folders have some give in the way of blade play at the pivot.
 
HoB said:
I would have thought the difference would be obvious. The SS handles are ground which should be more precise than molding, and the material has less give, whch allows for higher pivot tension and more accuracy. Makes me wonder what you expect an FRN handle to be. To me it is a lightweight, cheap and practical alternative. If I want a more rigid handle and want to spend the money for it, why would I go with FRN. If you go with more complicated manufacturing where you can not mold the FRN but have to machine it, you might as well transition to G-10 or Mircarta.
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FRN can be molded to any shape you want with great accuracy. I don't see how drilling and grinding steel is free of chalenges compared to this. I seriously doubt that a 1.5mm difference in blade and lock bar position from one unit to the next is the result of molding variation.

Strength is not the issue if the parts just don't fit together. Blade play might be cause by a flexible handle, but with a soft spring very little force is needed to see the blade play in some Delicas, so I don't think handle flex is the problem. Besides, I have a Salt I with almost no blade play, so obviously it is possible to make a good knife with FRN.

I wouldn't mind a nicely textured micarta handle either, but FRN can have the ideal texture and shape very easily. G10 has a nice texture naturally, but alas niether G10 nor micarta are usually available for most models.
 
STR:
Truthfully you can peen the end of the pins of any FRN knife and tighten things up if you wanted but what you gain in lack of blade play you will lose in snap when you open and close the blade.
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For side-to-side that works, and you can do it just right to have very little blade play and still open smoothly. FRN is a hard enough material to make a good handle.

But this won't help much if the blade play is in the open/close direction.

If zero blade play is an absolute must it would seem to me that a fixed blade is in order for EDC. Even my high dollar folders have some give in the way of blade play at the pivot.
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There are plenty of folders with little or no blade play you could notice by hand. Certainly there are folders with much less wiggle than the FRN Delica or Native. The US-made Native is way off in this area. You don't need to get a fixed blade to have a solid knife.
 
I wasn't suggesting that you would need to get a fixed blade to have a stable knife. Just that some guys seem to think any blade play is a fault. I have $350 knives in my collection with near zero blade play and some higher priced ones than that that have more lateral movement than some $25 knives.

I have noticed that the Salt 1 I bought was much tighter in the pivot area than any of the Delicas or Enduras I've owned in both stainless and FRN. Not sure why. Perhaps a fluke.

I think what we are talking about here is lateral (side to side) blade movement only and not vertical. Every lock back I've ever had from Spyderco has a slight bit of vertical movement. Some more than others. The Salt 1 which was the last Spyderco I purchased was the best of any of the lockbacks I ever bought from Spyderco with very very little noticeable movement vertically. Again, perhaps a fluke as I understand this slight vertical blade play is incorporated into Spyderco knives on purpose because their testing indicates the locks are actually stronger when they have this slight bit of movement.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Are the FRN models the same price as the stainless ones?

-Cliff
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Usually they are fairly close. I have seen many shops price both steel and FRN Delicas/Enduras at very close prices (eg, $43 FRN vs $46 steel). The blade steel might make a difference (ie, easier to grind/buy AUS6 makes up for more manufacturing work on the handle?), but I'm not sure how much.

The Native II (steel handle, AUS10) is much more than the FRN Native III ($4-50 vs. 60-70). Maybe some of that is because the Native II is just less common, but it seems like a big difference. On the other hand, the Native II is an oddball with AUS10 steel, so who knows what the story is on that one or if it's a different factory or what.

If a stainless Delica were always $10-20 more than the FRN (AND the same blade steel), it would be no mystery why it was made better.
 
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