Stock removal Vs Forging

T

TroyO

Joined
Mar 20, 2001
Messages
71
Soo.... whats the take on stock removal Vs forging? Is it essentially the same way of arriving at the same point, or is there a difference in quality?

I have heard that forging "Packs the edges" creating a more dense molecular structure which is therefore better able to hold an edge. True?

I have heard that stock removal prevents development of larger crystaline grains by a lower number of "Above critical" heatings of blade material, and is therefore better able to withstand shock. True?

I am not looking to start a fight, but am truely interested in which may be a better approach to making knives. I know stock removal tends to be cheaper, but is forging worth the extra investment to get started "right"?
 
Wow, this will stir some opinions
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I try to be very open minded about pretty much everything in knifemaking, and I feel that it's up to the desires of the maker as to what to do (grind or forge).

I have spoken with several MasterSmith's, added to all the metalurgy classes I took, and there seems to be no proof of "packing."

The biggest factor in a blade's overall performance will be it's heat-treatment.

You can perfectly execute the forging of a knife, or perfectly execute a blade by stock-removal...but do a poor heat-treat/temper, and you will have junk.

IMHO, the biggest thing that is attractive about forging is the opportunities it creates. One can forge odd things into blades, i.e. bearings, rr spikes, etc...and the biggest one is making your own damascus.

I am only 23, but I got started in knifemaking at 14. Until about 1 week ago, I never had a forge, and never had seen one working in front of me. I had always/only done stock removal, but I wanted to open a few doors...

It is proven that you can make a very high quality blade by stock-removal. Many stock-removal blades are made out of high alloy steels that can't be forged (at least not to my knowledge). But you can't create damascus by simply grinding on steel either.

I think it's ultimately best to learn both. If you forge, you will encounter stock removal anyway, after the blade is rough shaped and heat-treated.

It also depends on the knife's intended use. I think one of the best bets for a hunting/hiker's knife, is ATS-34 stainless, because of lack of maintenance, edge retention, and toughness.

But for something like a camp knife, a differentially heat-treated blade of something like 5160 is hard to beat.

Just my opinions. I have much to learn and am wrong a lot
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Nick
 
I believe packing is an outdated term, packing was described in several procedures in Practical Blacksmithing. This procedure was mentioned in using wrought iron, which has slag in it's structure, so would be possible to "pack" the wrought iron.

Modern steel does not have that structure.
I think it was in '45 or so when they conducted experiments in "compressed steel"

Can't be done.

However working the edge at a lower than forging heat, has shown some promise in a few steels.

Forging is the only way to obtain some blade profiles, unless you buy a really big sheet of steel.

The main reason fro forging is: Dang it, it's just plain fun.

Life is what it is
 
In my opinion one is not really better than the other once the heat treat is done (correctly) each has it's benefits over the other for some people.Like if you live in the city it isnt really feasable to set up a forge and get the neighbors mad at you.Me I just like to play in the fire and I like creating things from what others call junk and you really can't do that with the stock removal method.Also the materials can be cheaper when you forge as you can get scraps of the carbon steel around town for next to nothing if not free.You just have to put some time and effort into the blade that you wouldn't have to if you bought a bar and cut the blade out.
Heck the end result is that we are all making knives and having fun while we are doing it,so just use the methode that suits you and make the best knife you can then make the next one better....
If we would all quit trying to figure out which method is better and just start working together we could all learn from each other,just think of the possibilities that could bring about,Totally awesome knives !!!! from both fields
just my 2 cents worth,
Bruce

------------------
Bruce Evans Handcrafted Knives
The soul of the Knife begins in the Fire!!!!!
Member of,AKTI#A000223 and The American Bladesmith Society
asmallpicofbruceforforums.jpg
 
There is not a "one is better than the other type of thing", lets look at the methodology.

1. The process of stock removal is NOT necessarily "cheaper" to do than forging unless you are just using files and sandpaper.

A. I have found that forging is actually less expensive. The price of the steel is one reason since most folks that forge use simple carbon or alloy steels (such as 52100).
How much is propane or coal?

B. Most of the folks that do stock removal are using the much higher priced "stainless" steels. You also go through many more grinding belts than with forging.

2. You can do stock removal just about anywhere (some folks do). Forging takes up more room and space. Forging tends to create a bit more noise.

3. I don't know of too many folks that forge or can forge the "stainless steels" that are available today. These are left to the folks that do stock removal.

4. Heat treat is the most important aspect of a "good" knife. Whether you forge or do stock removal, your knife is only as good as the heat treat, period. If you take a close look at the journeyman or MS test the ABS have, basically that is what the performance test is all about. If the blade is not heat treated properly, it WILL NOT perform!

5. Forging takes more knowledge in areas such as in annealing, normalizing, heat treat and tempering.

6. Stock removal on the other hand is generally using the high tech steels (although some folks do stock removal with the carbon steels as well). Heat treat is generally done by a professional treater.

7. Forging is more of a traditional approach to knifemaking. That is why you will see more of the natural materials such as wood, ivory, bone, and stag used on a forged blade. Micarta, G10 and other synthetic materials are generally not used on forged blades. Even on folders, MOP, bone or ivory of some sort are generally used.

8. Blades made from the stock removal method - the sky is the limit on handle material used.

Which is better? It depends on what you want the blade to do and the type of knife you want.
 
C L
I agree with you on Just about everything BUT!
5&6 A lot of makers are now starting to do there own HT on the stainless steels. The knowledge of anealing and normalizing of standard carbon steels helps with the HT of the "high tech" stainless steels.

7&8 Is there an unwritten law that I don't know about that says I have to put a certain type of handle or handle material on a forged blade, and a different style or material on a stock removal blade. Is there anything wrong with doing a hidden tang S/S stock removal blade with a nice stag tip or crown handle. Also if you can hammer the bevels into a blade you can surly hammer out a flat enough handle section to take G-10 scales if thats what the customer wants.

What I am saying is for the maker that uses both styles of blade forming, and it doesn't really matter if he does his own HT or not, the sky is the limit as far as blade form, style and fucnction.

Let me state that I am not trying to start a fight, but IMHO I see no difference in a forged or stock removal blade made out of the same steel as long as the HT is done correctly. Is a damascus blade any better from the guy that forges it to 80% formed at the anvil than the knife made by the stock removal guy that buys a bar of damascus and grinds on it, if the HT is done the same????

------------------
Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
Robert,
Let me emphasize what was stated:

7. Forging is more of a traditional approach to knifemaking. That is why you will see more of the natural materials such as wood, ivory, bone, and stag used on a forged blade. Micarta, G10 and other synthetic materials are generally not used on forged blades. Even on folders, MOP, bone or ivory of some sort are generally used.

8. Blades made from the stock removal method - the sky is the limit on handle material used.

Note that I never stated that natural materials were the only thing that you would ever see on a forged blade. It is just "generally" the case.


C Wilkins
 
I like both methods but I love damascus. Im full time at this and seldom turn down a job. If my customer likes stainless I dont try to forge him one although its possible its more trouble than buying bar stock. A CPM (crucible particle metalurgy) stainless will more than likely outcut my best forged or damascus blade given they both have proper heat-treats. Its hard to beat the new alloy steels. But if Im making a traditional style pattern I think it needs to be forged because in those days they didnt use much bar stock. The early smiths were real good at using any steel they could find and if it wasnt carbon steel they would add carbon to it until it was. They forge welded out of necessity. They were great recyclers. I think the style and the intended use of the knife should tell you which method and steel to use. Bruce B
 
TroyO
It can indeed be a can of worms. I forge because I like it. I like the traditional aproach to a lot of things. Hince I forge my pieces.
You cannot pack the edge any denser. You can increase the tinsel{s?} strength by forging at a lower temperature, much like continuing to bend back and forth a coat hanger, there by making it cut a bit better than before.
I would like to say one other thing. It is not necessarly the heat treatment of the blade but the control of the temperature while working the steels. For instance the normalizing process is approx 100 degrees F higher for normalizing than heat treating according to my books. For the best blade you will need to know how to get it done. Certainly the proper control of the heat treatment is critical but other steps are also. You have to know how to reduce the grain stucture to its proper size or the knife is just not going to work as well. That is also why some people that forge does more harm than good.
When I met other bladesmiths I was taught that you packed the edges to break up the molecues. You normally get the mushroom cloud when you do that. For the most part we all learn as we go. I have seen some good blades stock removaled. Good luck which ever way you go.
 
I have to 2nd Mikes opinion! I'm only a beginner using the stock removal method and i study every detail on the knifes Bruce posts pictures of. Stock removal is ok by me for right now I'm loving every minute of it. Alot of what I've learned so far has come from studying the posts of a forge guy.(Bruce E.)

Chris Dark
 
I also think forging is a less expensive way to get started than stock removal. Mr.Goddard's $50.00 knife shop for example. With todays "supper alloys" and other exotic steels, forging is unnesesary I believe it to be really just a "fun" thing to do. The only reason I can see a real "need" to forge would be like as stated allready is to lengthen or widen a piece of steel, OR make damascus! We allways will have traditional ways and I hope (allthough I don't forge,) this one will continue.
 
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