Sunday Knife Show protocol & "Fair weathered" friends.

I've looked a couple of times, but since I don't go to shows I really can't answer your questions.

I know that there are good reasons for leaving early on Sunday. Many makers have a long drive and a job waiting for them on Monday. Many are sold out and the traffic is usally quite low on Sundays.

I think most shows have a rule against packing up early on Sunday, but it isn't enforced.

Those that attend shows on a regular basis probably have a much better insight on this topic than I do.
 
People don't go on Sunday because the makers leave early.
Makers leave early because people don't go on Sunday.
:confused:
 
I guess I won't be going to any shows on Sunday! This explains why the first year I went to the Pasadena show (on Sunday) I thought it was such a small show! I was pretty amazed at how it had grown last year (went on Saturday).

My thanks to those makers who stayed on Sunday- if not for you I might never had come back!
 
My take is this.
Opening day or Saturday: The hard core collectors, internet dealers, end user, are looking for the hottest knives on the market for there economic end. And that usually happens on the first day of an event. Hopefully it’s been busy and the above group has wads of cash and a few orders in there pockets that they can spend on the gas stations of America. For the ride home. The pay rate is better, twelve knives sold in eight hours for example.
Last day is Sunday: All the knife makers who are flavor of the month are sold out (Hopefully). Dealers have some popular maker’s pieces, but these pieces have been marked up. And these are heading to the internet to be sold to collectors that can’t reach these knife makers currently.
So what remains? Secondary tear knife makers. Who make a great product but can’t get to the flavor of the month club for one reason or another. Heck seventy tables with bowies, drop point hunters, skinners, tactical knives with a grind lines that match an ax. There are a lot of hungry knife makers selling a product that look similar. The Sunday buying crowd may not know the differences between Knife maker A and Knife maker B. And the different customer base, trust me, they are different. A mix of Saturday buyers and Sunday buyers come with sticky fingers prints, spittle bug lookers and story tellers. They take up your time. You maybe sell three bowie knives out of the other 200+ bowie knives that are sitting at other knife makers tables. For the all day event, the pay rate is a lot less. You don’t feel you got your monies worth and will not make enough contacts to increase business. So you hit the road early. Get dinner and talk about how Sunday shows are a DOG.

The event manager/promoter is a person that is disappointed that knife makers still have knives on your table Saturday night. Nothing makes a promoter happier than seeing tables with a whole lot more sold knives on Saturday, heading into Sunday. And brisk Sunday sales are the promoter’s dreams.
But you pack up early?? The show promoter is disappointed you didn’t stay. They wanted to thank you for your support. But you took off early, to get back to home/shop. They might have offered you some insight. Like next time please bring some knives that cost less than $500 dollars so you could start a customer base in the show area.
Do I have an answer…….. NO
But, maybe just a one day event. Yep. No B.S., no Bull. All of the above buyers meet at one time, on an equal playing field and come out to buy. There is no tomorrow’s show.
And the table holder’s have to put on there best sales face. Get it done today, because there is no show tomorrow.
My wish list for a better Sunday event:
1. Knife maker’s and purveyors share there mailing lists, with the promoter to direct mail there local customers.
2. Please post the event on your website. State you will be there both days.
3. Please get a website. See #2
4. Promoter offers free admission on Sunday to the direct mail customers.
5. Visit the Forums and post pictures of your knives which will be present at the show.
6. You leave early, next year your table will face a wall. You know they all do.
7. If you leave early, please leave the area clean.
8. Yep, we will invite you back next year. But your table next year will have a man selling Indian jewelry on one side. And on the other side, the complainer, about how the food gave him the worse gas.
 
Very interesting comments. There are enough issues mentioned already get to the crux of the problems and I hope to help find some new approaches that will better the knife shows for all of us.

I am concerned that knifemakers, their products, and the buying public, are often placed into categories. In my opinion, the less hierarchy and pigeon-holing there is, the better.

No person who enters a show, no matter what role they are playing, is less important than the next person to the knife world. Those that think they are a member of some elitist sector of the knife world need to re-think things. Cliques are for high-school.

No maker should be demeaned simply because someone else who who feels superior, or couldn't make a knife if their life depended on it, looked down their nose at them.

I would love to go to a show where the makers who thought they had an advantage over other makers had to, by lottery, first secure permission to be in a show, and then, by lottery, secure a table position. And, as an added incentive, an advance deposit, equal to the show fees, were to be forfeited by anyone who leaves early or otherwise violates the contract.

I would then feel that, at least some of the manipulation that is now going on, has been eliminated and as a consumer I weren't being manipulated by some conspiratorial plan based on greed and delusions of grandeur.
 
I have seen a lot of people leave early at shows, the last couple years more than before because the attendance was way down and there seemed to be noone around to buy or talk to. I have never left early from a show and have at some shows sold more in the last 10 min or as I was packing up then during a show. The most times people pack up early are the longer 2-3 day shows were the single day shows people seem to hang around for.

I think we miss out on some prospective buyers by leaving early and it's not fair to the people who paid addmision to go to the shows if people leave. There is always good reasons to leave early..sickness, emergency etc..and those are unavoidable.

The last show I Attended was very difficult to stay the full show hours. I think about 6 people walked past my table in the last 2 hours of the last day. But this too is unavoidable. If there is a lot of traffic people seem to stick around longer.

.02

Chad

www.carrollknives.com
 
Radicat,

Prior to the Internet selling started the day/night before the show opened. Serious collectors showed up, met with the makers in the hotel bar or in their rooms. In many cases the makers had no knives on their table from the second the show opened.

Even with the Internet, selling starts the night before the show. The first day of the show is the "DAY"!

Some makers are now doing their lotteries over two days to make it more fair.

If the show is a two day show, then pretty much if you haven't sold it on Saturday you are taking it home, unless a dealer you work with is at the show.

Sunday used to be the day for the bargain hunters. Seeing a maker with a table full of knives led the buyer to offer less (in some cases substantially less...bordering on insulting). If the maker had no other outlet they would at least consider it.

In my case all this changed with my website. As there was no reason to sell the knife for less...just put it on the web site. I was an early adopter of the web site. However, as more makers and dealers developed web sites of their own...the Sunday bargains started to disappear. As did many of those bargain hunters. Realizing that there was no advantage to be gained they came on the first day of the show to avail themselves to the best selection.

So with the best selection on the first day and no bargains on the Sunday...very few customers showed up.

Most makers and dealers are part time. If they stay till the close on Sunday (usually 4PM). Then start to pack up. If they have to catch a flight, the earliest out of NY would probably be 7PM, get home around 11PM. Off to work the next morning. Some live closer and drive. It is still 8PM on Sunday night...this after a day of more than likely not a single sale.

If promoters want their table holders to stay...it is up to them to put buyers through the door...not paying customers. Any show promoter will tell you they cannot guarantee this.

The idea of losing a table fee or deposit doesn't work. Why, because it will not be enforced. Why, because the show promoter counts on the big name makers to show up at their show...many of these are the same people who don't even have a table cover on their table on Sunday.

The ideal solution is to get rid of Sunday as a show day. With the exception of the Blade Show, no show in America should be 3 days....NONE. Either a Friday/Saturday show or a Saturday Show.

The difficulty with this is the show promoter with the exception of security costs gets Sunday almost for free (as hotels have difficulty booking a room for a Sunday only event). So for the promoter all the fixed costs have been paid for on the first two days...any customer through the door is almost pure profit for them.

Now with the advent of digital camera and cell phone technology the business of custom knives is changing almost daily. Collectors no longer have to wait for a show to get a knife from a maker...order one off the Internet. As well they are contacting the makers/dealers before the shows. A couple of clicks of the digital camera, down load on a computer and the email photo is sent. Or take a picture with your cell phone and email to the customer.

Custom knives is a very competitive market. While makers like to have knives on the table when the show opens. Shows are expensive and expenses have to be covered, consequently makers understand (as do the customers) that lying down $100 bills in front of a maker will generally get you the knife even before the show opens.

Any way, it is a question that has been asked for at least the 25 years I have been involved in custom knives. I suspect that the question of leaving early on Sunday was an issue before that.

The answer....there is no answer. Each table holder has to do what is best for them. Local shows usually aren't a problem staying till close on Sunday...shows you are driving 12 hours (or more) or flying offers a different set of circumstances that have to be considered.
 
Interesting post even if it has been discussed many times before. I experienced the "desrt wasteland" of the last few hours of a 3 day local show this past spring. I left abou 1 1/2 hours before closing. It was pretty darn slow the whole weekend for most of the custom guys anyway. I didn't sell a single knife all weekend. I posted them on the forums and sold 4 on Saturday night, so Sunday I had 4 "sold" signs. Didn't make any difference....lol. SICAC has gone from a Saturday?sunday format to Friday/Saturday with the Friday session being a shorter one like Friday at Blade. There are apparently a lot of folks who are displeased because they can't make it Friday and fear that all of the good stuff will be gone. From what I am reading here, it may be gone BEFORE Friday. :eek: If not, then their fears may not be well founded because if EVERYBODY will have trouble showing up Friday, the there should be a lot of Stuff left for Saturday, right? My head hurts:D
 
I agree, with the exception of Blade, there's NO need to have a show go into Sunday.

Though no doubt, some very nice knives change hands on the day/night before a show it's limited considering the grand scope of things. I had friends going to the Blade Show for the first time expecting most of the best knives to be sold prior to the show, simply NOT true.
 
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Hi Joe,

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of good knives on Friday, Saturday and Sunday at shows (especially if I am there :D).

The "Hot" 25 (whoever that may be at any particular time) usually sell out immediately (or have lotteries, which were implemented to make things more fair).

As Kevin stated that people thought all of the "Good Knives" were sold prior to the show opening. "Good" knives is a term defined by each collector. Different tastes for styles, materials, etc.

Like it or not, word on the street is "If you want the top shelf stuff be there on the first day of the show...when the doors open."

As you say a lot of people cannot be there the first day. This is where the phone or email comes into play. Pick up the phone and call the maker a week out or email the maker (phone usually works better). Makers understand that those collectors who do this "pre-qualify" themselves as buyers.

Like or not, those who have to wait to see all the knives at the show before making up their minds. Are entitled to this prerogative. Just as the maker selling the knife to someone who is willing to pay for it is entitled to their prerogative to sell that knife.
 
I completely agree that 3 days shows are too long and Sundays are usually a waste of time. I would love to see all shows go to a 1 or 2 day format.

However, I have heard a lot of dealers say they want 3 days shows and won't consider traveling to a 1 or 2 day show.

From my experience as a custom knifemaker, If it is a good show, you will sell out in the first day or two. If it is a bad show, if you didn't sell them Friday and Saturday, you're not going to sell them Sunday and you are just sitting there thinking about things you could be doing back in the shop.

Like was said earlier, Sunday is a catch-22. People don't come because half of the sellers have gone. The sellers leave early because the buyers aren't there so they might as well get on the road.
 
First, check with the show organizer. If you leave the OKCA show early, the rule is that you can't come back next year (though enforcement has been somewhat... how shall we say this?... "situational."

The reasons that shows run into Sunday is A) it encourages folks to stick around all day Saturday. If the show isn't going to be open on Sunday, then a lot of people will leave Saturday afternoon, but if the show is open on Sunday, then a lot of people will stick around And B) Some people can't come on either Friday or Saturday (work, family, whatever). Granted, what those people usually find on Sunday is the dregs, but at least they can see that.

Take Bladeshow for example. Friday is the sellers' day. The prices are high and the buyers' wallets are still fat. Saturday is the social day. There's not as much buying and selling. It's a good day to check out the manufacturers' booths and a good day to sit down and chat with a maker about a new custom order. Sunday is the buyers' day. The prices are low and the deals are good.

In my opinion, most shows should only run two days since most aren't as big as Bladeshow. But, I would suggest dropping Friday. This will make travel easier and mean that attendees who have regular jobs won't have to take so much time off from work.
 
I've come to the conclusion that the table holders need to have their tables open during the entire show. Those that leave early give the late crowd, who had to work or whatever, very little opportunity to see anything. That sours those folks badly, since they had to pay to get in and made it as soon as they could. If the show looks half closed to them, they probably won't ever be back.

Some shows require table holders to have their tables open during all show hours. I think that's a good thing.

YMMV

Gene
 
I always stay the full show open hours. 1 reason is that is usually the show rule and I have sold knives withing 15 minutes of close on sunday. I have seen where some big names have split before noon on sunday at a show and watched a lot of customers go to the maker's table only to walk away disappointed. It makes the show look bad and I think it shows a lack of repect for the customer. Now if there are good reasons for leaving early then by all means, it isn't the end of the world, but a lot of customers expect to see makers at a show during the show hours. Even if they aren't buying or you have nothing to sell, folks still might want to meet you :)
 
Bill Siegle said:
Even if they aren't buying or you have nothing to sell, folks still might want to meet you :)
Click to expand...

This is an excellent point. If you pack up and leave just because you've sold everything, it sends the message that selling everything is all you came for and that you don't care about meeting people, shaking hands, answering questions, that sort of thing. In other words, all you care about is the money.

Most of top-tier, rock-star knife makers, the folks who sell out within minutes of the show's opening, got to that status first because of their great knives, but also, to some extent, by "pressing the flesh" as they say. Often, people will be more likely to buy your knife, more likely to take up collecting your work, if they feel some bit of personal connection.

One tip for you makers: I understand that you can't be at your table from the opening bell to the close of the last door; you need to visit the restroom, you need some lunch and maybe a bit of snack. If you smoke, you'll need to step out for that. You may want to look at some of the other tables yourself and shop for supplies. Fine. But please leave a sign that says, "I will be back at..." and then make a point of getting back at or before that time. It's very annoying to want to meet or talk to a maker, to go to his table and find he's not there, to go back in an hour or two and find he's not there and the guy at the next table says, "You just missed him." "Did he say when he'll be back?" "No."
 
The only problem I see looking at it as a new person is that makers who sell BEFORE the show opens are hurting the shows in general. I do understand that they have every right to do so but I also understand that the "attendees", I use that term because they can't be called buyers if everything is sold before the show opens, has the right to stay home. You may say "they could have ordered it off the internet or contacted the maker before the show for a picture and reserved it". That is true but then why attend the show? You would have already purchased your knives and most of the quality makers have nothing for you to see, so why go? I spent a LOT of money last year (my first year to attend a knife show)for air, hotel, rental car, food, etc. I walk in to the show within 5 minutes and almost every major name maker was sold out. My first thought was "look at all the money I just wasted coming here"! I could have stayed at home and used that money to buy a really nice knife off the internet. I don't think I was the only person that felt that way. I now know that that is how it is done so I never go to a show with the intentions of buying a major name makers knife. If I want one I will order it off the internet from the makers site or aftermarket. I do understand that a maker needs to sell his knives and has every right to sell them how ever he likes but I think, over the long term, this will hurt the attendance at shows especially in a economy like we now have.
 
I think the third day is important to have. The Planes have all left before I can get to the airport on Saturday night and waiting around the hotel until the Sunday afternoon flight is quite lonely.:D

Really, having a few hours(not all day) on Sunday is important. Friday and Saturday are a very busy time. This is a day when we aren't as busy. It's a chance to walk away from your table for a few minutes. Maybe talk to a dealer who had been busy with clients the first two days or it gives a collector time to spend with a maker, who might have only been able to spend a few minutes with you when it was crowded. It's also a time to talk with other makers, exchange information and ideas(you know bullshit:jerkit:). That's the best part of the show!:thumbup:
 
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