Tachyon Warning!

[Mike Turber]

When you get your Tachyon, please do not open and start flipping without looking to see which is the safe handle. Got a call today from a non-forum member who started flipping right away and sliced himself good.

MT is shipping them in random configurations.

 

[Agent-A1]

You should always look first so you don't bandage later.

 

[Mike Turber]

True, problem is most people just look to see how the latch is put on as the safe handle is usually the non-latch handle.

Just a heads up.

 

[Gollnick]

Mine came Manila out of the box, true. Fortunately, I picked up that fact before anything unfortunately red happened. I will say, though, that I understand the potential for a serious cut. Mine's very sharp as the little sticker on the bag promises.

 

[ExamonLyf]

Although it sounds like sort of a dumb mistake.., that's a good "heads-up" actually. I have actually done that (2) times assuming a piece had a Batangas style latch without looking. Neither instance resulted in a "red awakening", but strangely enough one of the knives was the "Gemini Proto" which Darryl Ralph made with a Manilla latch. Given I had to feed my dogs and forget about feeding myself to buy it.... ...that would have been a "major ouchy"!

The other knife was the prototype Richard had of the "Monarch" at the last Oregon Show (it wasn't "for sale"..I was just checking it out). I was just lucky on that one because I just flipped it open as if it was double-edeged...only to see "Mr. Sharp-Edge" facing East instead of West ...

Years back I was always more cautious to -look- before flipping, which is certainly something we should all keep in mind. Nothing worse than a brand new knife and a wound so nasty that it takes the fun out of it!



"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"

 

[tonyccw]

Originally posted by Mike Turber
MT is shipping them in random configurations.

Mike, no disrespect to either you or Tony, but I have to ask. Why?

In my mind, that's not good QC.

You can't blame the user for thinking that the latch is on the bite handle, as everything they've read about the Tachyon has lead them to believe that. This includes all the pic's I've posted, as well as my review of the prototype.

Yes, the user should have been more careful. But with the impressions of the Tachyon in their heads, and the excitement over receiving the Tachyon, these little random sampling injuries could have been easily avoided.

 

[Darth Detori]

I always do a slow windmill on new balis anyway, just to make sure it's configured correctly and the tightness is correct too.

 

[Gollnick]

There's nothing wrong with a Manila configuration.
Furthermore, Tachyon is readily reversible. If your's comes in the configuration opposite of what you prefer, just change it.

Mike is correct to point out that you should be carefull, now and forever, when opening an unfamiliar Tachyon since they are reversible. If you and I should happen into each other on the street some time and you should say to me, "Can I see your Tachyon?" And if I should hand it to you, you will need to be careful because you don't know what configuration mine is set up in. Because Tachyon is reversible, you will always need to be careful when handling an unfamiliar one.

 

[tonyccw]

Originally posted by Gollnick
Furthermore, Tachyon is readily reversible.

Because Tachyon is reversible, you will always need to be careful when handling an unfamiliar one.

No problems with either comment. But should they be leaving the company in random configuration of some Manila and some Batangas? If BM did that, I'm sure the first thing people would do, when encountering a manila style BM bali, would be to complain about BM's QC going downhill again. Why? Because BM is known for it's company standard of Batangas latch installation. It's something you can bank on.

Why isn't the Tachyon held to a common standard? Instead of depending on what the MT employee felt like putting together at that moment?

The warning is valid, don't get me wrong. I'm simply arguing that most users are anticipating the Tachyon to come a certain way, and those injuries are attributable to the fact that some Tachyons came different than anticipated. Let them come out of the factory one way, and let the user decide which way to install his latch.

 

[Mike Turber]

I think it has to do with the employees at MT never being told which way to do it in the first place. It is their first butterfly and they will have a learning curve to go through. Technically there is no correct way or incorrect way to put the latch on. I do agree that all should be put on the same way and Batangas is the norm on most butterflies. So I will talk to Tony and crew on Monday.

 

[Burke]

Better yet, ship the knife without the latch installed, to save on labor in the factory and let the user configure it however they like without going through the worry of accidentally cutting themselves. I think there could be a substantial price reduction for this...

 

[tonyccw]

Mike, I appreciate the fact that you've engineered the latch on the Tachyon to be reversible, and that's one of the design issues I like most. I've already switched the latch once on my prototype to find out the sensation of a manila latch flip. And it works like a charm.

I'm glad the issue will be retified soon.

 

[tonyccw]

Well, solved the problem of the latch digging into my palms when I hold the Tachyon in the foil grip. How? Changed it back to a Manila latch configuration. Now I just have to remember that this Tachyon is a Manila and not a Batangas. Good thing I don't flip it that much...

 

[ExamonLyf]

Since we've finished the serious components of the thread.., I'd like mine with two latches Mike ....then I'll remove one.., and have an extra

I also do agree the assembly procedure should be consistent.., but the warning is a "good thing"!


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"

 

[chris_64]

Yes they are going against tradition by putting it on the opposite handle that everbody is used to but we're all saying well no prob i'll just switch it around. What about the warnings that say "DISSASEMBLY VOIDS WARRENTY" i dunno sounds kind of like they're defeating the purpose of having such a customizable knife.

 

[tonyccw]

Originally posted by chris_64
What about the warnings that say "DISSASEMBLY VOIDS WARRENTY" i dunno sounds kind of like they're defeating the purpose of having such a customizable knife.

We now know the latch was because no one thought to set a standard, so the MT employees focused on putting together a great bali, without understanding the impact of the latch on the wrong handle. Something we balisong forumites take for granted.

The jury is still out on that warranty thing. So many of the selling point more than imply that we should be able to do our own dissembly. However, I think Mike wants us to have those features, and somehow, MicroTech just happen to send out their regular warranty card with the DISASSEMBLE WILL VOID WARRANTY already printed on it. Wait for Mike to clear the air, please.

 

[ixpfah]

i'm just a little disturbed by that warrenty thingy... now, please note that i have not read any warrenty, all i know is what i've read about it at this forum.
i may have gotten this completely wrong, but i have the understanding of if you change out the blade, for instance, or simply just take it off, to see what the blade alone looks like, you've voided the warrenty. am i correct?
1) yes
then i'm curious... if a dissasemblement voids the warrenty, what's point of even making such a bali? (this has probably been discussed before, that wouldn't surprise me. i appologize.)
from what i've read about the tachyon, they made it that way so that the user him/herself could change the blade if it broke, or change it to get a new blade profile. but if you do that, you void the warrenty? i mean, COME ON! what's the big deal if you dissember your bali a little? does that make it broken or something? why so strickt?

2) no
oh... i'm sorry then. i'd better read my homework till next time

 

[tonyccw]

Originally posted by ixpfah
1) yeswhat's the big deal if you dissember your bali a little? does that make it broken or something? why so strickt?

Mostly to protect themselves from product liability issues. Especially if the user is the one that causes the product to break. Any good manufacturer will stand by their products, but even they should not be held accounable if the user is stupid and tries to perform repairs beyond his abilities. However, with regards to the Tachyon, we don't know yet. The warranty issue, as described by Chuck in his review of the Tachyon, contradicts many of the features advertised. Still waiting on Mike to let us know.

 

[Gollnick]

The warranty issue, as described by Chuck in his review of the Tachyon, contradicts many of the features advertised.

That is not true.

Here is the list of features that I have on the add from which I bought my Tachyon:

• Virtually No Blade Play
• User-swithable/removable Latch
• User-replaceable Blades
• Titanium Handles
• 154CM Blade
• Spineless Handles
• Unique Latch System
• Bronze Phosphorus Bushings
• Under $200

Virtually No Blade Play? Yes!

User-swithable/removable Latch? Yes! (And Mike has already said that it's ok to change/remove the latch.)

User-replaceable Blades? We're not sure yet and I would ask you to refrain from spreading as fact that it doesn't until Mike comments.

Titanium Handles? Yes!

154CM Blade? Yes!

Spineless Handles? Yes!

Unique Latch System? Yes!

Bronze Phosphorus Bushings? Yes!

Under $200? Yes! And you get a handsome sculpture of Abraham Lincoln, suitable for framing, as a token of Microtech's appreciation.

Yes! Yes! Maybe? Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Yes: 8
No: 0
Maybe 1

Well, Mr. Tonyccw, I don't know where you learned your math, but in my book, one of nine is not "many."

There's a lot to like on Tachyon and I think you're trying to make a huge issue out of a minor point and doing so without even waiting for all the facts. And I'm gonna ask you right now not to make further comments on this until Mike clarifies the issue.




Now, you touched on one point: when a user disassembles a product and then tries to reassemble it without factory tooling, documentation, and training, there is a risk that the product will not be properly reassembled. It could wear prematurely causing additional and undeserved warranty expenses for the manufacturer or it could even become dangerous and cause undeserved legal liability for the manufacturer. Warranty costs and legal liability are real-world, bottom-line issues for companies and it's only responsible of those companies to consider those issues.

I used the term "responsible" there. What do I mean? Responsible for what and to whom? Responsible to the company's investors and creditors and responsible to the company's employees. If a company goes out of business or looses money because of excessive warranty costs or legal judgements, the investors may loose their money and the employees may loose their jobs.

As a customer, you may not like something like a restriction on waranty coverage and disassembly. But, if you've ever lost a job because management made irresponsible decisons, and I have, then you know what it's like to be on the other side of that equation.

About ten years ago, Chrysler was forced to tell their investors that there were no profits for the year. Oh, they'd made money on sales of products, sure. But they'd lost it all down one hole. As part of their recovery scheme, they dismissed over 8000 employees. Where did the money go? What caused 8000 people to loose their jobs? One thing: excessive warranty costs on Dodge Grand Caravan minivans with Ultradrive transmissions. A frined of mine went through three Ultradrive transmissions in his Grand Caravan before Dodge gave up and gave him a whole new minivan. Now, this was not caused by customers disassembling their Ultradrive transmissions (God help you if you were to try). But, it does point out the serious nature of warranties.

Some might say that disassembling the blade on a Tachyon is easy, just two screws. But not everyone in this world is very mechanically inclined. I have a brother who has to call me on the phone every time and ask me, "Do I turn the screw clock-wise or counter-clock-wise to tighten it?" A company can't guarantee that all of its customers are at all competent to be turning screws. Besides, do you really know how to disassemble and reassemble your Tachyon to factory specs? Is there, for example, a torque spec on that screw? Do you know what it is? Do you have the right, calibrated tool?

Now, setting aside that issue, there is another possible reason that knife companies may disallow disassembly of balisongs by customers. That is simply the fact that they have other, more complicated knives in their product line and it is not fair to those customers to allow the balisong customers to disassemble and still have warranty coverage and not allow the customers of those other knives to do the same thing.

Benchmade has, for example, said that you may remove the latch from your 42/3/7 without voiding the warranty. And, you may adjust he pivot screws as necessary. On their conventional folding knives, you may remove and replace pocket clips without voiding the warranty and you may adjust the pivot screw. This is a consistent policy uniformly applied across their product line.

In Microtech's case, they might, and again I remind everyone that Mike has not commented, they might feel like they also want to establish a consisten policy across their product line. If they allow Tachyon customers to interchange blades, they why not allow owners of their OTF autos to do so too?

Anyway, I strongly suggest that we refrain from further criticism of Microtech and Tachyon on this point until Mike clarifies the issue.

 

[tonyccw]

Originally posted by Gollnick
User-swithable/removable Latch
User-replaceable Blades

Please explain how these two items can be accomplished without disassembly.

Yes: 8, No: 0, Maybe 1

Which makes it in my books. Yes: 6, No: 2, Maybe 1

Well, Mr. Tonyccw, I don't know where you learned your math, but in my book, one of nine is not "many."

In the math books I have 2 = many.

And I was referring to the original 4 outlined features:
Problem: A pet peeve of most butterfly knife users is the latch. Either the latch is on the wrong side or the user wants the latch removed altogether. Also the latch on most butterfly knives contacts the blade causing chips.
Solution: Allow the user to switch the latch to either side via a Torx head screw or remove the latch completely. Also place the latch in such a way that it never touches the blade.
Result: The user can now change the location of the latch at will or remove it from the knife allowing complete freedom of swing with no latch noise. The spacers in the handle of the knife actually prevent the latch from closing on the blade. This solution is better than just extending the length of the handle as some companies have done.

Problem: The very nature of the butterfly knife makes it the most dropped knife on the market. Blades get chipped and sometimes the blade actually breaks.
Solution: Make the blade user replaceable by allowing the pivots to be removed completely by the user.
Result: The user can now replace their own blade or switch out a blade for a different style at will without having to buy an entire new knife.
Both of these would violate the warranty issue as indicated in your review. At 2 out of 4, that's 50%. A very high percentage.

There's a lot to like on Tachyon and I think you're trying to make a huge issue out of a minor point and doing so without even waiting for all the facts. And I'm gonna ask you right now not to make further comments on this until Mike clarifies the issue.

I resent that remark. If you read every one of my post after last night, it indicates that we should wait for Mike to get back to us. Look at the time stamp. As for making a mountain out of a mole hill, I'm not. I merely stated that the disassembly issue contrdicts what has, and is still advertised. Both are mere statements of facts.

Now, you touched on one point: when a user disassembles a product and then tries to reassemble it without factory tooling, documentation, and training, there is a risk that the product will not be properly reassembled.

Now you're the one making a mountain out of a mole hill. I merely pointed out the contradiction that's been presented by your website's review of the Tachyon, and the website from WOWINC. At no time did I specifically deny that MT should not provide certain warranty restrictions. I quote:I'm sure it's all a matter of Tony sending out the generic MT warranty card with the Tachyon, and did not realize that the verbage on that card places Mike in a legal bind.

Some might say that disassembling the blade on a Tachyon is easy, just two screws.
Besides, do you really know how to disassemble and reassemble your Tachyon to factory specs? Is there, for example, a torque spec on that screw? Do you know what it is? Do you have the right, calibrated tool?

Yes I do. I have a FAA licenses in Airframe and Powerplant. I also have 3 years of college level mechanical engineering training. As for the torque spec's that's a matter of public knowledge should MT release it. And if they are ready for some owners of the Tachyon to do their own disassembly, then they should release that information. To further protect their interests.

Now, setting aside that issue, there is another possible reason that knife companies may disallow disassembly of balisongs by customers. That is simply the fact that they have other, more complicated knives in their product line and it is not fair to those customers to allow the balisong customers to disassemble and still have warranty coverage and not allow the customers of those other knives to do the same thing.

That's not my concern. If the product has been advertised to be disassembled by the user, as is the case of the Tachyon, the compny will need to honor that advertised feature, or else they risk facing False Advertising complaints from irate customer. Plus, it would erode the trust the customer may have in that company, regardless of the quality of the product. If the consumer implies from that one occurance that he can disassemble every knife made by the company, that's the customer's fault, not the company's.

Anyway, I strongly suggest that we refrain from further criticism of Microtech and Tachyon on this point until Mike clarifies the issue.

Chuck, I defy you to point out where I have posted a negative comment about the Tachyon, aside from the complaint that the latch digs into my palm when held in the Foil Grip. As soon as I held the prototype in my hands, I have done nothing but praise the Tachyon. And if you can't tell that I'm complaining about the business practices of the compnay, rather than the product, you may need to re-read my posts, or let me know where I may have lead you astray, and I'll amend my language to follow suit.