Terminology, Perception, and Reality

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Jan 25, 2007
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I decided to start a new thread, because of some of the posts I am seeing lately, particularly in the 0560 thread. I want to have an open discussion about some of the issues I am seeing.

First, perception vs. reality. I am noticing that some people seem to be looking at a picture or holding a knife briefly, and drawing conclusions about how well it will perform. I am concerned by this, because none of this seems to be based on real world experience. Let's make sure that we're not stating our opinions as if they were facts (this goes for me as well :) ). How can anyone really comment on a steel they have never used? How can we say how tough a knife is until we go out and use it?

Second, I think that terms like "strength" are hard to quantify. What makes a knife strong? A lot of people are making the mistaken assumption that weight=strength. I'm not saying that there is no truth in this concept, but look at the strength to weight ratio of carbon fiber. The stuff is light, but incredibly rigid. Coring out a titanium knife handle will not compromise the strength of it, so long as it retains enough thickness to be rigid. The majority of the materials we use to make a knife are far stronger than they ever need to be.

But seriously, what makes a knife strong? I would say a strong lockup is one factor. A blade made from thick enough stock to prevent it from bending or deflecting under use is another. A strong knife needs a handle that is structurally rigid and strongly mated to the blade and locking mechanism.

Third, I think "Strong" and "hard use" are very open terms, and we need to be more specific in our definitions. At the end of the day, these are knives, and their intended use is cutting. I would consider opening envelopes and packages to be "light use". I think cutting cardboard, rope, rubber tubing, and carving wood to be medium use. However, if you do these tasks repetitively, I would consider that hard use. Cutting copper wire is definitely hard use. Somewhere along the line, we cross the threshold in to abuse. What are you hard users doing with your knives? I genuinely want to know.

Finally, let's keep in mind that I can never recommend that anyone pry or twist with a folding knife. We're not naiive, and we know it happens, but when I say "I don't recommend prying or twisting", don't think I'm suggesting that the knife is weak or compromised. I'm simply advising that it's not a safe thing to do with a folder, and not something I can recommend as a representative of KAI USA.
 
Well Said Sir. I'm a Chef and I consider hard use as using my EDC to open everything from cardboard boxes and Bags of Flour/Sugar/Salt and Also using it to cut tips from plastic bottles and to cut Labels off #10 cans before recycling. Light use to me is opening mail.
 
When I buy a knife, I intend to cut things with it. And that's usually it. For a "hard use" knife, I expect it to not fail as I impart pressure cutting/stabbing/pulling/pressing and I have had knives that failed during these tasks.
 
That is interesting. I always thought that "Hard use" was considered "harder" than that. I use my 0350 for twine (hay bales) and openning cardboard boxes (usually 100 packages, though I only do that once in a while, not on any frequent basis). I always thought that what I was doing was considered "light."

Although, where does the "skinning a deer with a 1600 Chive" fall in?
 
Skinning a deer with any knife is light duty unless you are using a butter knife. :)

Actually cutting through the hide would be more along the lines of medium because of the coarseness of the hair and the thickness of the skin. But the act of slicing while pulling the hide doesn't stress the edge much.
 
Ore Ele - I think that is why this is such a difficult thing to define - I am suggesting that a light task repeated many times can be hard on a knife. I'm not sure if it qualifies as hard use, but it can definitely be hard on the cutting edge.

Thanks for your responses folks - let's hear some more tasks you use your knives for.
 
Realistically 99.9% of the tasks I do with my edc knife could be accomplished with a slip joint that had a 1.5inch blade. However I carry a ZT 0200 as my edc. I do this for 2 reasons, first i LOVE this knife. but second is that I never know what emergency role Im going to have to be forced to use my edc folding knife for. But regardless of what it is i know that if my 0200 cant handle it then I probably a pry-bar or a chisel.

in my mind there are three things I consider to make a knife "strong" and the first and foremost is the thickness/strength of the tip because if my folder is forced into an emergency role it is probably going to be prying something and the tip is the weakest link in most prying situations, next is blade thickness and having a steel that isnt extremely brittle for the same reason.


In my opinion "hard use" consists of things that have the potential to damage the knife but are still less than abusing it (I am not including dulling the blade as damage). A couple things that come to mind that i have done with my edc folder are sharpening a wooden stick or chipping/breaking ice.
 
One of the hardest things I use a knife for is skinning and quartering hogs, big nasty hogs, and big tough aoudad rams. The hair, mud, and dirt on their hides is extremely tough on a knife edge. Plus, the shields on the front shoulders of big boars is tough on a knife. Besides the skinning, the dismembering of the animal requires some tough use on the joints of the animals legs, and hips. I've used my knife to cut through the briskets of large animals, the ribs, and the back bones of large animals. All of these acts may involve a bit of twisting, prying, pushing, chopping, and cutting through heavy cartilage, joints and bone. And, I promise, knives with substandard materials need not apply. It takes a tough knife, with good blade steel, to make it through one animal without edge damage or the need for sharpening. And, when you pull 10-15 hogs out of a trap, and you gotta skin'em all by yourself, you'll be glad you got a tough knife with good steel. I promise.:D
 
One of the hardest things I use a knife for is skinning and quartering hogs, big nasty hogs, and big tough aoudad rams. The hair, mud, and dirt on their hides is extremely tough on a knife edge. Plus, the shields on the front shoulders of big boars is tough on a knife. Besides the skinning, the dismembering of the animal requires some tough use on the joints of the animals legs, and hips. I've used my knife to cut through the briskets of large animals, the ribs, and the back bones of large animals. All of these acts may involve a bit of twisting, prying, pushing, chopping, and cutting through heavy cartilage, joints and bone. And, I promise, knives with substandard materials need not apply. It takes a tough knife, with good blade steel, to make it through one animal without edge damage or the need for sharpening. And, when you pull 10-15 hogs out of a trap, and you gotta skin'em all by yourself, you'll be glad you got a tough knife with good steel. I promise.:D

What knife are you currently using for your pig chores?
 
What knife are you currently using for your pig chores?

This past year(2011) I skinned and quartered right at 37 hogs. I did every one of them with a Queen fixed blade #4190, with D2 steel. That D2 just seems to hold an edge for an exceptionally long time, and shows exceptional toughness as Queen puts it out. On a couple of occasions I had to do more than ten at a single session. That's when the D2 really showed it's worth. I also did 3 whitetail deer with it this past season. I did touch up the edge, whether it need it or not, after each big skinning session to ensure I was ready for the next big skinning session. I haven't had a chance to use my new ZT's or Kershaws yet on any hogs as I have just recently started collecting them. But, I have a few trips planned in April and May for hogs and maybe an aoudad. My plan is to put the S30V in them to use, and I'll probably use some of the 14c28n in the Kershaws on some to see how it does. edited to add: I have a 560 incoming and can't wait to try the Elmax steel on a hog. Should be interesting to see how the different steels stack up against D2 in real use.
 
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I would choose a fixed blade for such tasks, just easier to keep clean and the handles offer less chance for hot spots. Having said that I would certainly test my beefy folders on a hog or two.

Keep us posted on how the different steels respond the the work out.
 
My son wanted a 350 to use on the farm. I did not know he would use it for any and everthing. Cutting wire, screwdriver, prying mud out of the tracks of the skid steer, scraping anything and probably trying to cut anything. He wanted me to sharpen it and dam it was dull, but when I finally got it sharp, it was good as new. It was tight as ever and opened like lightening. This sure made a beleiver out of me on how good the ZT knives are. I have a 200 and want another 300. PS, I told him not to let it get so dull next time. He said this knife works for a living.He said it does not get babyed like your 200 which is probably true.
 
"Hard Use" is definately difficult to quantify. Now, I think Razor hit it pretty well, prying mud out of the tracks of the skid steer is easy to quantify as "hard use". I've used a Skyline and an OD-1 kind of like pocket bushcraft knives. Now granted I've never battoned them, but I've used them for just about anything else one would use a knife for in the woods. These are two thinnly ground pocket knives, yet I've never had a bit of problem out of either one of them, but I've always used them in controlled situations, not some wild life and death survival situation where care for your tools gets pushed to the back of your mind. Thats the situation where (to my mind) having a "Hard Use" folder pays off. They are tools that give you a greater margin of error.

Brandon
 
I consider my use "hard" on knives. I work in a very large processing and shipping emviroment. Today I only used my knife to cut open about 12 pallets. Tomarrow I might have to trim 1000 sheets of cardboard, cut trailer seals off, cut sharp plastic off pallets all day it could be almost anything. I do abuse some knives too, used my Recon to cut wire, steel trailer seal's and just the other day I cut out a new hole in a door frame with it.
 
I'd like to hear from the folks who posted in the 0560/0561 thread that said it is a fragile knife.
 
I was going to get a 0561 but then I realized that there is no way its puny titanium handles could bear the strain of my edc chores, like cutting twine, opening Avon catalogs, and trimming my nails.

sarcasmart.jpg


I'm getting a 0301 instead, as I'm told you can kill Godzilla repeatedly without failure.


I kid, but my knives get used for heavy rope cutting (3/4"), clothesline, wood trimming, zip ties, cat5 cable, rarely coax, carbon fiber and fiberglass cloth cutting, and a bit of gasket scraping :eek: they also get caked in silt too. (for instance the emerson I had with me today handled all these tasks but the wire as none needed cutting. My blur was fine for these things too before I gave it away, which for all the "weak knife" guys out there, ain't even a full scale liner lock let alone a Ti framelock)
 
I actually had gotten less excited about this knife as I thought it would be too thick bulky and overbuilt or in a word MallNinjaIsh. After seeing detailed pictures and hearing about how thin and light it is I am just as excited as I was a over year ago when I first heard of tell of it. The knife looks like an awesome heavy duty EDC that can actually fit in your pocket since it is after all a pocket knife. Haters gonna Hate;)
 
I'm not sure what the thoughts are in regards to the ZT's being not tough, I intend to buy one to try out at some point to see if they are as tough as I expect them to be, it will likely be the 0350, as I won't cry "quite" as bad if it goes in the water, I'd love to try out one of the 0560, 0561 series, but at the price point, I wouldn't want to run the risk that it would go for a swim. I work offshore as an electrical foreman and I use my knives to a point that most would consider hard use if not outright abuse, up to and including cutting wire (#10 copper, stranded), as well as stripping outer jackets of pvc off of aluminum armored cables, scoring the aluminum when needed, cutting manila rope of the 1/4-1/2" flavors, opening boxes, and cutting shrink wrap off of pallets soaked in salt water. My Leeks get the nod most of the time, and believe it or not, handle everything I ask and keep coming back for more, and they are much more of a gentleman's knife than a hard use folder. I carry 2 Leeks pretty much everyday, a 1660CB and a standard 1660. My CB just got dropped into a G10 handle that I traded for, so time will tell how I like this incarnation.

All of that being said, I picked up a speedform 2 and was disappointed in the blade geometry. It seems too thick for the height, length, and the grind, time will tell whether or not it will replace either of the Leeks that are my constant companions as it doesn't cut nearly as well, being Elmax it may need sharpening less often, but as of right now, it ain't looking too likely. My opinion, it should have had a high hollow grind, or full flat grind and not a modified saber/ low hollow grind as delivered.
 
My son wanted a 350 to use on the farm. I did not know he would use it for any and everthing. Cutting wire, screwdriver, prying mud out of the tracks of the skid steer, scraping anything and probably trying to cut anything. He wanted me to sharpen it and dam it was dull, but when I finally got it sharp, it was good as new. It was tight as ever and opened like lightening. This sure made a beleiver out of me on how good the ZT knives are. I have a 200 and want another 300. PS, I told him not to let it get so dull next time. He said this knife works for a living.He said it does not get babyed like your 200 which is probably true.

...now THAT is one of the best descriptions i've ever read here on how to use a knife; and that's how i use my zt200 too...my knives, especially my 200 and 500 do not ever get babied, period.
 
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