Terzuola Liner Locks

R

Ronald Reagan

Joined
Dec 18, 1998
Messages
417
I am a great fan of Terzuola's knives and currently own two models - the Century Starfighter and a bolstered ATCF with burgundy micarta scales. Both of these knives are made with precision craftsmanship and the designs are genius. I would argue these knives have the best feel of any custom tactical folder on the market.

Recently however, I discovered that the liner locks on these knives - especially the Starfighter - are quite unreliable. The lock on my Starfighter disengages quite easily when white-knuckled in a realistic way that simulates a hard use grip. How can I possibly rely on this lock in a self-defense situation? Can this problem be fixed? I purchased this knife with intention of caarying it as a lightweight, backup defensive folder. I am now quite skeptical about its effectiveness as such due to the shortcomings of the lock

I have read the numerous postings and threads regarding the limitations of the liner lock, but only now have I witnessed its inadequacies in an otherwise first class knife.

The Starfighter's blade is beautiful - it is perfect for my needs and the handle fits my hand perfectly. The weight and balance of the knife are also first rate. I truly enjoy carrying this knife - but I can no longer rely on it for its intended purpose. I have other excellent folders (ATCF, Crawford, Lightfoot to name a few) that meet the requirements of a sound defensive folder, but I seek a solution to the Starfighter's problem and the Bladeforums is my first stop.
 
Ron
I would give Bob a call and explain the situation to him and I'm sure he will rectify it.
Bob
 
Ronald Regan,
Have Bob Terzoula recess (cut out) your liner lock...This way the meaty part of your finger will not engage the lock by accident.
 
Ronald Reagan
The problem you describe is not uncommon in liner locks. It comes from the fact that when one "white knuckles" a knife, the fleshy part of the finger can, with some people, disengage the lock slightly. In my experience this disengagement is usually not enough to allow the blade to close but it is dis-concerting. I certainly can recess the lock bar a bit and this usually solves the problem. No charge for this, just return shipping.
I have been mulling over this problem recently and have been considering the design of my knives, mainly due to the excellent feedback from this forum. I have tried to design my knives with the lock release scallop falling between the fingers to minimize the inadvertant release of the spring but I have read too much doubt into many of the posts here to believe that this alone will solve the problem. Thanks for the honesty and straightforward criticism which has always been of a helpful and constuctive nature.
After much thought, I have decided to modify my designs by recessing the springs as a standard feature and reducing the size of the scallop.
Send me your knife if you wish and I will be happy to modify it. Best Regards BOB
 
Now that's class. You couldn't ask for more.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
Bob,

Thank you for your response. If possible, I
would like to send my ATCF as well.

I greatly appreciate your help in this matter and look forward to the modified knives. I will get in touch with you next week. Thanks again!


Paul Lee
aka "Ronald Reagan"
smile.gif
 
Guys here is something for you to consider.

First, those of you who have had martial arts training understand that tension only occurs at the point of impact. To tense early, will slow either your delivery of a technique or the blocking of technique. Performing any technique with tension prior to impact, is perfroming the technique incorrectly. This is the mark of a beginner.

When I was studying Kendo, my instructor kept telling me that I was swinging both the shinai and the katana like a baseball bat. I continued to do this until I got tired of coming back from the Dojo..black and blue.

I then relied on technique,not strentgh. For each Shodan exam I have taken, there is a period of kumite (fighting or sparring) before hand. This is done to tire you out, so the instructors will be able to see your true technique.

When I went through Sniper school, the same principles were taught. At the point of firing, only your cheek and the tip of your index finger on the trigger actually touched the rifle. Again there was no tension on the rifle, until the shot was fired.

So what does all this have to do with knives. Everything where the dreaded and feard "white knuckle" test is applied. Boys and girls if your having a white knuckle failure, your doing your technique wrong.

If you are gripping the knife that hard, you have already lost. You will have a difficult enough time controlling your "fight or flight" relfex. If you cannot control this, along with your breathing and your movements. You will further complicate things by putting a "death grip" on your knife.

A knife that possess proper blade geometry and is used correctly by someone who has trained with the knife will not have a "white knuckle failure". More to the point, this knife will not even need a lock of any type.
Remember, the lock, wether a liner lock or a lock back is nothing but a safety mechanism. This as we all know is to keep the blade from closing on your hand.

If your blade is buried in your opponent you do not have to worry about it closing on your hand.

If you dont get in the first effective cut or thrust, white knuckle failure will probably be the least of your worries.

Guys, lets get real here. How many of you train with the knife you carry, I mean daily.
Would you bet your life and that of your loved ones with the skill you currently possess. IF YOU CANNOT ANSWER YES to these questions, you are carrying the wrong item for self-defense.

For those of you who still insist on carrying a knife and worry about white knuckle failure, carry a fixed blade.

Better yet, sign up at a martial arts school and learn how to defend yourself with the only weapon you really need. Your own body.

I would recommend the book, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee as bedside reading. He does an excellent of explaining "focus" in this book.

Personally, I prefer ASP baton's for self-defense. I know they are illegal in certain states, well if they are illegal, so is a knife. The main advantage to these batons is that the collapse, so they can be used like a yawara or a kubotan for close in encounters. Additionally, they can expand giving you an additional 18 to 24 inches between you and your opponent.

The one time I had a person pull a knife on me. He lost. I found a piece of electrical conduit pipe about 24" long. He was tense and untrained. He left with a broken wrist, a broken collar bone and a dislocated knee. He was only hit three times.

While his his knife passed the white knuckle test, the rest of his body did not.

This is just food for thought. Yes, I do agree that to many liner locks will collapse if you grip them hard enough. Bob Terzuola is right, there is no easy answer to aliveate this problem.




------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
or if you cannot carry a fixed blade, you could just buy a folder that easily passes the white knuckle test. if an inexpensive production folder will pass this test, then i would have to expect an expensive custom to pass as well.
it is correct that their should be considerable tension only at impact, but why take the chance? if i make the mistake of using too much tension before impact, i would like to know that my folder will be able to take it. imo, it makes no sense to buy a defensive folder that cannot pass the white knuckle test. there are beginning to be plenty of options in the realm of non-linerlock folders.

marco
 
Les,

That was a very interesting post - you have many good points. The problem is my "white knuckle" test was in reality a "gentle hand" test. It really took no effort to disengage the lock and have the blade collapse. Although I wasn't able to perform this consistently without fail, it occurred enough to cause concern.

You made a very salient argument regarding muscle tension in a combative setting. It is imperative to remain relaxed, natural and calm in combat, otherwise one has significantly less control over their thought and body. This would ultimately lead to self defeat, paving the path to victory for your opponent.

Regarding knife grip tension, I train with a solid grip but it is flexible and pliable. Is it tense enough to disengage a linerlock? I don't think so, but the possibility of lock failure in a fight is possible. If I can disengage my lock quite effortlessly sitting at my desk content and worry free there is a chance it may disengage in a more heated environment.

Also, if one is serious about self defense and blade work, total dependency on one folder is ludicrous. Many of the students in my kali group train with 10+ blades on them. I admit, this may be unrealistic for most, but it accomodates the type of drills and excercises we practice.

I just want my lock to have the smallest possible margin for error. Les, you brought up a great topic - these are the type of posts I like to read.
 
Hi Ronald,

I realize I kinda went on and on. A much more simple solution is this. If the knife does not meet your needs and/or expectations, dont buy it.

The other alternative is, to work with a custom knife maker and have him make a knife that will meet your needs and expectations.

Aren't custom knives wonderful!!!



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
I'm solidly with marco on this, though I totally appreciate Les's comments about staying relaxed until impact. My boxing coach and I have been working on my speed and power, and staying relaxed until the point of impact is everything.

Bob, I think you make the right decision in cutting down the liner a bit. I have one of your knives, and it exhibits the exact same behavior -- the lock is a hair above the scales, and white-knuckling starts to disengage it. I've found that *any* of this type of disengagement will often result in complete disengagement when there's a lot of force put on the point (especially if that force is a little downwards towards the spine), or some torquing is applied to the blade.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Hi Joe,

Which custom tactical folders do you own?

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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
I'd just like to interject, lock strength is not important only for defensive purposes. I have no martial arts training, but I use my knives daily. There have been times when I have had to stab the blade into something, and it would have been very unpleasent to have it fold over.
Aaron

------------------
aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
amacks,

I agree with you whole-heartedly. It's just that I happenned to discover liner lock failure on one of my self-defense folders, which I do not use for any utility purposes. But it has occurred to me that lock failure on a utility folder is even more likely and because of this, I believe it may even be a greater, more wide spread problem.
 
Les,

I'm a little uncomfortable giving an inventory on the web, but I sent you an email reply to your query. Interested in hearing why you asked. In addition to the knives I own, of course, I have plenty of knife knut friends, and get to handle a lot of others...

Joe
 
Hi Joe,

I responded to your email. I asked what Joe used, bought, carried, etc. For my own research. Im always curious what people buy and why?

I design alot of knives and I am always looking for input.

Joe has some nice ones!



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Hi Joe,

For some reason I cant get a email to you.

You told me you had a knife for sale. What did you want for it and what condiditon is it in.

Please email me your response.

Thanks,

Les
 
I am with Marco on this totally. There are cheap production folders that are known for having solid liner locks (AFCK). If these can do it I don't see it as a positive sign at all that a custom knife can't. Bottom line is that it can be done right so there is no excuse for it not to be.

As for your argument Les that the white-knucle test is not realistic or practical I don't agree with this at all. While I will not comment on the martial aspect of it, there are lots of times when doing simple utility type tasks I don't use a slack grip, and this will collapse a bad liner lock.

-Cliff
 
Just wanted to say thanks and pass this Kudo to Bob Terzoula.
Ronald Regan, I had a similar problem with an ATCF where my index finger could disengage the liner lock partially when I gripped the handle tightly. However, no matter how hard I twisted and flex the blade while white knuckling it, the blade never close on me. As with you, I like the peace of mind knowing my knife will exhibit “smallest possible margin for error”. Therefore, I asked Bob Terzoula to replace my liner with a new one, and for him to make the liner fit stickier against the tang. Bob quoted me $85.00 for a new liner. I send him a money order along with my knife and waited. Couple a weeks later Bob return my knife fixed (nice and sticky against the tang)along with a note. The note read: “This is the stickiest I will make my knives, and since I didn’t have to replace your liner, I am returning your money”. Wow…what a surprised!!!!! Bob could have very well kept my money, but because of his HONESTY and INTERGRITY, he didn’t.

Thanks again, Mr. Terzoula,

Noel aka Bob Litt


[This message has been edited by Bob Litt (edited 10 May 1999).]
 
If you need to white knuckle a folder, you either need a sharpening stone or a fixed blade. Preferably the latter. Use the right tool for the job.
 
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