The Design of a Sword

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WaysofOld

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Mar 10, 2002
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Well I seem to have started something really deep and thought provoking with my last thread without knowing very much, Hows that Irony for ya? I have Decided yto make it out of 5160 and if think somthing else might do better I'll make another. But after reading all the great advice and p.o.v I still have some more questions and here they are ...

1)How does one figured out where the Point of balence and Point of percussion will be in the finished sword? Some kind of formula?
2)What the hell is distal taper?
3)How Heavy and robust should the guard and Pomel Be? (Assuming that it will be used for guarding the weilders hands)
4)Should the handle be round or oval in the cross section? (Oval might be better for control of the blade cutting angle eh?)

Now with all that be asked, What inspired me to make a sword was the movie "Conan The Barbarian". Laugh if you want but there was somthing about the sword that he had that was both strong and mystical. So if you are wondering what I want to make I guess it would be a functional version (not identical version) of the sword that Conan had. Movie props look good but are probably poorly balenced. I guess you could call his sword a Hand and a half short (29 inch blade) Broadsword. The hilt of mine will look a little less elaborate but the sword overall it will have the same profound and Magical look. (At least in my minds eye it does) I await your advice and thank you all in advance.

WaysofOld
 
Hey...I know this post may be somewhat applicable here, but if you didn't realize, there is a forum here at BFC that is dedicated to swords.

Just letting you know.
 
1) You can't. Its simply too complicated and too many variables come into play to put it down in a simple formula.
You do it out of experience and by copying existing models already having that characteristic.
Document on blade shapes and weight, so you can do something similar.
You should definitely get "Records of the Medieval Sword, by Ewart Oakeshott".

2) a sword blade usually varies in size along its length both in wideness and in thickness.
Taper is the blade becoming narrower towards the point.
Distal taper is the blade becoming thinner towards the point.
one of the most common errors making a sword is giving no distal taper, that is: the blade is all the same thickness from ricasso to point.
This usually makes the blade godawfully heavy and screws up all the harmonics thing.
How much distal taper, where to start it and if to make it constant or not, is another matter of experience.

3) the guard should be made out of steel, tempered for maximum resistance to impacts, its ends must have sharp corners, either by being squared off neatly, or by being flattened to form narrow flanges, or pointed. this because the guard tips may be used as a mace against armored opponents and are anyway weapons of their own.
The pommel should be heavy enough to put the point of Balance of the blade where you want it. If the blade was correctly made, the nodes will end up in the correct places...

4)The handle should be oval, or any shape but round. Round will allow the blade to rotate in hand and would seriosuly compromise not only your cutting ability, but parrying as well.

You can get more qualified help than mine (I know these things in theory only, not because I made any sword) on the "bladesmith cafe" section of http://www.swordforum.com.
You get people like Kevin Cashen and Al Massey there, who can answer your questions.
 
i belive he made the Barbarian sword of conan's as well as the other swords in the first few movies.
 
You picked a hard design to start on for several reasons. First it is double edged and second it is big and hard to balance so people smaller than Arnold can use it. Alarion pretty well covered the high points and the only way to get it right is by making them. The distal taper is very important both to make it cut well and to get it to handle properly. To give you a start on the distal taper figure the taper in the width you want and grind that. Now when you grind the two edges and keep the grindline centered, the distal taper will come on it's own. Your sword may require more or less but that's a good way to start.

The center of Balance will be determined by the weight and shape of the blade, the distal taper and the weight and length of the fixtures. The Point of percussion and center of power (they are not always the same) are going to be where they want so for now, don't try to control where they are, just learn to use it after you get the feel of the sword. To temper the guard or not depends on a lot of things. on a heavy sword you can do either I think. A tempered guard will vibrate more than a soft one (like a tuning fork). If you go to the sword section here they are a great deal of help. I like Ken Cook's point of view a lot. He is a little more practical than some sword people. There are also a number of very talented people on swordforum.com although there are also a lot of "Swordsnobs" who are going to weigh you down with misinformation (beware of people who carry Wak's on their motercycle..nuff said) Take a look at Tinker's website. I don't remember the address but you can link it from swordforums. He is great with the balance on large swords.

After you read a little, make the thing. Don't expect it to be perfect. I try to learn from each mistake and make the next one a little better than the one before it. After you make the first one you will have more questions but you will also have a real life understanding of what the questions mean and how the designs work. It is impossible to design a sword and discuss the building of one if you haven't done it!
 
Just for a quick reference to that other thread, you made a wise choice in steels. You most certainly would not want to start making anything with a very high alloy steel for a whole host of reasons. The steel you picked is great for what you want to do. You could even start with something simpler and easier to work like 1050 and it would work fine too. You've chosen a very daunting first effort IMHO. Good luck with it.
 
Laurence is right,Jody Samson made the Conan swords. I believe there were 4-5 of them. The ones that big Arnold was swinging around were made of aluminum!!:eek:. Is nothing sacred anymore :D
 
Well thank you all again for your time and advice I will keep reading and learning untill I feel that i know enough to be dangerous and then I will make my attempt. And yes I guess i did choose a difficult task for my first project but as they say "the best way to get wet is to jump right in". Jody Samson did make the originals and if you go to www.Albionarmorers.com you can see the project of remaking the swords from the movie this time using 5160! I think the replicas will be very heavy though. These are my thoughts thus far:

1) Distal Taper is a good thing and I am going to start it from the ricasso, Width will be uniform (I like the look of that style of blade)
2) Oval shaped handle is what i thought would be the best.
3) Guard Shape is more then I thought, Guess it is back to the drawing board!

Thank you for your insight!

WaysofOld
 
An important thing to avoid is heavy guard and pommels. They don't need to be very big to do what they do. This is an area where you can save a lot of weight. For example, if the blade is properly distal and profile tapered, you don't need a big pommel to balance the sword.

This is why we make such a big deal about distal tapering, it saves weight on two counts. One a lighter blade, and two lighter pommels can be used. Not to mention the many benefits distal tapering brings to cutting efficiency and blade vibration.

One reason many fantasy swords aren't practical is the massive guards and pommels they use. Fantasy sword makers want to produce a metal scultpure, not a weapon.

This isn't to say modern knife/sword making styles cannot be an improvement on the old European sword design. For example, the old tang-through-the-handle-and-peened-through-the-pommel is a LOUSY design. I've never seen one that wouldn't come lose. A full tang design would be far far superior from a user point of view.

This is something the Europeans wised up to in the 16th Century, something that they should have done from the begining. Making the traditional handle =right= is so complicated it's not funny. If you thought distal tapering is complex, wait till you learn traditional handle making. In someways, the European sword is fussier than the Japanese swords.

Second, if you have to do the traditional handle, for God's sake don't use wood, they tend to crack. Even leather washers would be more durable. I like carbon steel for large swords with traditional guard shape and blade taper (time tested design), but modern handle material is a real bliss.

I imagine in the old days, warriors had plenty of smiths around to tune up his sword now and then. Today, we expect a product to last. And we have the means to do it.
 
With all the good advice that I have been receiving it should be quite easy to get a rough idea for my project. I am now thinking that a fuller running the length of the blade may be a better Idea then distal taper in order to add rigidity and lessen the weight. I think that this would make a strong blade (in theroy) for the type of sword i have in mind (a cutter, not thrusting). Any thoughts?

WaysofOld
 
Yes the fuller will lessen the weight and make the blade more rigid. This has been a time honored method of building heavy swords. It is used both with and without distal taper. The better designs though have both. Distal taper does more than reduce the weight. It evenly reduces the weight. So can a properly fluted fuller but most are a fixed groove down the middle. The distal taper also improves the blades geometry making it slice more aggressivly at the business end.
Don't expect this one to be the answer to all your dreams. You have the right attitude, and are thinking about the design. A lot of the options you have now boil down to you pays your money and you makes your choice.

This sword will always be special to you. Enjoy making it and using it. By the time you finish you will have learned a whole new language and it should only be spoken in soundproof rooms. After you finish it you will want to start designing the next one. Good luck.
 
Yes some of the best swords had both distal taper and fullers.

Like Peter said, distal tapering reduces weight in a balanced way. The idea is to reduce more weight toward the tip so the sword feels quick and responsive.

Let's say you had three 29" sword blades with the same shape. The first being 1/4" thick distal tapering to 1/8". The second is 1/4" throughout with deep and wide fullers. The third is 3/16" throughout. They would all weigh exactly the same, however. . .

The first blade would feel "more alive" than the next two. The second would not cut very well because it's just as thick at the cutting area as the ricasso. The third would be the weakest blade and may even feel a bit wippy.

Back to a point I made earlier, since the first blade have a center-of-balance closer to the guard, you don't need a heavy pommel to properly balance the sword - thus further reducing weight.

If you are a good stock grinder or smith, with good heat-treat skills, you might be a good knifemaker. But to be a good swordmaker, you need to be a fair engineer as well. That's what makes swordmaking so cool! :cool:
 
a fuller in a knife or sword will also reduce the chance of breaking it in impact by giving the steel stress release points. like I beam steel girders used in building,
 
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