The economy's influence on making and collecting knives.

Gus Kalanzis

Gus Kalanzis

Havin' fun, learning and putting up with Bastid.
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I know of some pretty well known makers that cut back on the fancy stuff in favor of basic and using knives when the economy slows some and as a collector I usually do not have as many knives on order when things are slow in general.

In addition quality and real value come to the forefront of my decisions. (more so than my norm during an up-cycle, since there are occasions when I may want to support a brand new maker and not have the highest expectations of the work).

Just wondering, other than the obvious, how collectors and makers are affected during different economic times. Good and bad.
 
I generally feel the need to slow down but I haven't just yet because I have been able to keep collecting by selling off factory knives and because my main interest is in low end ($400 or less) customs, however, I can see that this will be ending soon because I am starting to run out out of factory knives that I don't mind selling.
 
As I haven't had steady work since February, my knife buying has dropped to near zero. Additionally, as the competition for jobs in my field has become absolutely fierce, I know that when I do get a job it will be for significantly less money, and I will have a large amount of debt to pay off. All this adds up to very few new knives for the foreseeable future.
 
You bet the economy makes a difference in what I can afford to buy. I am in the retail sector and so if people are spending less, I am making less. This means that I am not able to buy as many knives.

I would imagine that there are mant others like myself. If quite a few people are unable to afford to buy as many knives during a downturn in the economy then that would lead me to think that makers would not be selling as many knives.
 
This is not meant to be a "rehash", nor is it intended to reopen old wounds...so please don't take it that way.

A few months ago, I stated in a forum post here, that the purchase of mid-range custom, semi-custom, and handmade knives by the general public was directly correlated to the amount of discretionary funds available to said general public; and as such, as the market tanked, said discretionary funds would probably dry up.

What I was trying to say in that particular post was that whereas many people in the knife "business" had been living in the bubble of the "boom years" of the economy, and that bubble may indeed burst, leaving those relative newcomers to the "business" seeking gainful employment elsewhere, at a time that would be particularly difficult to "start anew."

I followed that whereas some of us collectors would probably ride out the storm relatively unscathed, and as such continue to purchase from the makers, purveyors, and resellers that had treated us with respect and dignity...

My comments were met with a "Blow it out your arse, newbie" response by more than a few in the "business"...

So, I for one, will continue to support those in the business that have been respectful towards me in the past, and to the rest of the pack, I say this..."Best of luck guys"

I don't relish saying any of this at all, and I take no satisfaction from this turn of events. The thing of it is though, it's true, and just a reminder...."You ARE dependent on your clientele"

"Best of luck guys"
 
Guys,

What I have found over the last 16 years as a dealer, is that generally a slow period in the economy makes collectors re-think their purchases.

Many are now in the position that they are looking to liquidate some of their knives. Some are going to find that they chose poorly and will either get very little for their knives or will not find a buyer at all.

I do agree with Melvin, that some of the new makers and dealers will find it difficult over the next few months. But take heart most of the makers and dealers are not full time. So while it may get a little tight, most will be able to hang around to ride it out. Just don't expect those web sites to be changing with any regularity.

However, just like with every other slow time in the economy, the US comes out of it even stronger.

Take this time to assess your collection and buying patterns. Take note of which knives held their value and which did not. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, just don't make the same one's twice.

As with the Stock Market, opportunities are everywhere. Now is not the time to sell...now is the time to BUY!
 
I agree with Melvin and Les.
First, a maker is always dependent upon his clients for his sales. Once the sale is made the client depends upon the maker. In other words, once the client has the knife, it is up to the maker to increase the value of the knife. The maker sits down and grows no more neither does the value of his clients collection. So, guys to repeat Les's oft expression, do your homework. While you may be slower in your buying, buy wise. Pick people who are steady and/or going somewhere.
I have found some of my high end clients have dropped from investment class to presentation grade but some still are buying very high ends. What I call presentation grade pieces are doing really good and even picked up a bit. Sales of combat/fighter/military type knives are very strong as well as some other models. Some guys are picking up more hunter styles than before. All in all a slight shift but still very strong. Like the attitude of the country basically.
With the shift of the economy it weeds out by natural selection the weaker and leaves the strong. Hopefully those that are stronger also wiser. For right now, buy what you like but pick you maker wisely first.
jfisk
 
Jerry, your knives are always going to sell great, and so they should. I don't think I have ever seen one that I didn't like.
 
Sales over the last week here has been good with all that is going on taken into account.
Im proud to be sending knives to folks who will be sent to fight.


Same thing Les and Jerry said.
 
I have been thinking about this and what Jerry and darrel have said about business being pretty good. An economic downturn probably has less effect on well known makers. People are still willing to spend their money on knives made by people that they know. I would bet that it makes more of a difference to the new and little known makers.

I am not sure that this is the case and would love to hear from some of the less well known makers.
 
I took things a little slower at this show than I have in the past....for a myriad of reasons...

My wife was with me, she's an enthusiast too, and this was her first BW show...

Our tastes are becoming more refined....which requires a "meet and greet" with the makers, and a closer examamination of the "wares"...

We know more people in the business now, and so a little "face time" is in order...

And there were some people that we just "had" to meet...

Bottom line? No money spent by us, and when numerous makers were asked, "So, how's the show going?", most of the responses were, "Slow, very slow..."

In all fairness, we were there a few minutes after the show opened on Saturday morning at 10 AM...but we stayed until nearly 3 PM.

The purveyors seemed happy enough, but they also seemed to be in the "buying" mode...and they weren't selling much, I think because their prices were higher than I'd expected...10-20% over last year's show.

Where am I going with all this? Custom knives need a following to have any substantial value...and if said following is becoming increasingly concerned by the financial conditions facing us in America today, I think we're going to see some serious fallout in the industry...that's my two cents worth.

I think I'll ante up the $150 for the Art Knife Invitational just to see if I'm on track with this, or if I should give the meds a break... ;)
 
Melvin,

As one who does a fair amount of buying and selling of custom knives.

I will tell you that the custom knife market is always in a state of flux.

There are always customers buying and selling.

There are always makers who are hot and those who are not.

There are always "up and coming" makers.

The custom knife market is less affected than the factory market during slow times. This is due in large part to those who buy custom knives. They are in large part professionals, who by the type of income they make will always seem to have a little disposable income.

This is not to say there are not guys who save up for a year or make payments to get custom knives. There are. In fact that is how I got about my first 25 custom knives....making payments.

Regarding the Blade Show West it has been in decline for several years now. A lot of this has to do with the custom makers who used to do the California Custom Show when Dan Delevan had it. Did not want to pay in excess of $400 for a table, just to be in the same room with a lot of factory knives.

I saw 4 well known knife makers at the New York Custom Show back a former executive of Krause Pubs against the wall at their booth at the show. No one was getting physical or anything, but they were expressing to him, why they wouldn't be back.

This of course was picked up on by every table holder in the room.

It was let out at the Guild Show this year that Krause is indeed looking for someone to sell the show to. Obviously, it won't be Dan, as he is now trying to put on another show in California next October.

Good thing Phil Lobred's show is this year. If not you would have 4 shows in California in less than 8 weeks. How about that for saturating the market.

Starting up a new show in California will be tough. Dan obviously has a lot of experience. One of the problems will be getting the guys to come from east of the Mississippi. As several of those big names will have hit the Blade Show West or BAKCA Show and then have to get knives Ready for the New York Custom Show.

Then there is that pesky Internet that is cutting into every show out there.

Dan, Krause and Randy Morgan at the BAKCA Show, out to get together an put on one Major California Show. They could rotate it between their repsective cities or just leave in the middle somewhere. A 300 table custom show would be awesome.

Speaking of Phil's show, Melvin if your in the area, by all means ante up the $150. After all it's only a 4 hour show, so you won't get bored, and it won't be slow.

Remember, buy what you like, but do your homework as well.
 
Thanks for the insight Les. I try to listen more than anything at the shows, and as such, I witnessed two members of the "Blade" staff schmoosing makers with promises that it would "get better soon"...

Being that my wife is in San Jose, and I'm here in San Diego, no sooner had I put her on the plane back to San Jose this afternoon, I booked reservations to head back up there next weekend...

I miss my wife terribly, and I sure wouldn't want to miss the BAKCA show... ;)

I talked with SR Johnson a bit at the Solvang show about the Art Knife Invitational, and then a bit more about it with Tim Hancock at BW, and being that we have the invite, I guess I should slum down there for a "look see"

(is blue hair and beach shorts appropriate attire?) :rolleyes:

The thought that keeps going through my mind is sustained, or increasing value, over time...and that's not a good enough reason to make the purchase...at least for me.

I like knives quite a bit, but I still see myself using them, and hard. So I'm getting hung up on the prices asked, because if there is no ownership transfer vehicle, (cash), in place at a later date...then I'm screwed.

It's a toughie for sure, I sure hate letting go of cash! Not that I'm greedy, I give away quite a bit to friends and family, but I'm a hedge better, always weighing the options on personal purchases...

Anyhoo, I think the "bid up" knives will make Phil's show worth while...lol ;)
 
As usual, Les hit the nail on the head again.

Do buying patterns change when the economy slows down? Sure! If I am worried about making a house payment or losing my job, why on earth would I spend several hundered dollars on a knife for a collection?

If I were a soldier going off to war, then that is a totally different story. As a collector and user, do I really need another knife?

What will that expensive custom do that a ~$100 Becker won't? Do I really need that extra level of performance or confidence?

With regards to value and wise purchases, when the money dries up in a slowing economy, who do you sell to? A less knowledgable newbie or collector with money burning a hole in their pocket may snap your knife up but, an experienced collector will be much more critical in both price (value) and quality.

We all have knives that we paid too much for or bought for the wrong reasons. Six months ago it was much easier to move that knife then it will be today. Those of us who bought quality 'users' will probably find our ability to trade or sell outright much better then the folks who purchased unknown makers or knives that are higher end art pieces.

Will I really use a damascus and MOP folder? Which Kit Carson Model 4 would I not use?
 
Yes the economy can hurt a maker.I was just starting to recover from this summers slump which saw people canceling orders not just the orders being slow,and I was told that the reason for the cancilations was due to the economy.Then the Terrorist attack and wall street fell down again and my orders have stopped again.Now I live in a small little town in Mississippi and there is't much local money for sales anyway and so I would have to go back to making $50.00 knives to sell anything local again.I sell most everything on the internet as I started full time with no money and really haven't had the extra money to do the major shows like I would like to,seems that the kids need something or get sick every time I get some money saved for a show and that takes the saved money.
So Yes when the economy is weak a lesser known full time maker feels the squeeze very tightly.And when the economy is down the job market localy dries up also and so I am stuck with getting behind on biols and no way of getting out of it easily until the economy starts back up and people start ordering again.This is the first time in 2 years that I have had anything available for sale that lasted more than a week and now it seems that I am going to keep them for awhile.
I haven't figured out what way to turn with the style knives that I should be making as the customers that were ordering were keeping me making big knives and I wasn't selling anything that was a normal skinner size knife at all....
Just the ramblings of a broke Bladesmith that is looking for the clouds to break...
Bruce
 
It does sound like the better known bladesmiths are less affected because there are always some people around with money. It's always the people down toward the fringes of profitability that have the hardest time.

The good news for me is that I just got a job, and just in time too for BAKCA (I'll be there tomorrow, Sunday, if any of you will be). I was out of work for a little over 3 months this time, and what I found is contract, and short term (6 weeks, but could end up being twice that). Contracting salaries are down too. I'm making about 25% less than I would have as a contractor a year or two ago. I have to limit what I take away, and hope for some good deals being there on the last day of the show.

I feel for all of you who have lost work thanks to the dotcom collapse, and then it seems the civilized world on top of it! This contract will end in not too long (I'll appreciate it while I have it believe me), and I don't know where the rest of the economy will have gone then.
 
Just back from BAKCA...

No money spent, other than airfare...

The song remains the same...

Bruce, I'll look over your work...if it "fits" I'll order...if not, I won't.

Again, I'm just "one guy", in and amongst "many guys"...

Methinks it's time to start stuffing the mattress...

I'm starting to get worried about the economy...I dunno, could just be me...

All the best...
 
Melvin,I apriceate it.You might want to check out the new Bowie pictures that I have over on Shop talk that arent on the website yet.There are three new ones
Bruce
 
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