They don't like being called Kamis!

C

Craig Gottlieb

Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Messages
1,760
Well, I learned a lesson while in Nepal. Before I left, Lalit told me via email not to call the kamis "kamis" but rather workers, or blade makers, or if I wanted to, "bishwakarmas." When we arrived, I asked him why. I had always thought that "kami" was a term of honor (as we use it here in the USA, it certainly is). However, I learned something that I thought I'd pass along - a "kami" is the name for a very low caste, and to call a person a "kami" is a borderline insult. I learned this first hand when I was in a clothing shop in Dubarg Marg (a touristy section of Kathmandu near Thamel and the royal palace). Marya and I were getting fitted with "safari" outfits at a very reasonable price. When the tailor asked me where we were going, I told him we were going to Dharan, and I told him why. He said "Wow, I'm from Dharan!" Smiling (and thinking I was honoring him), I asked him why he wasn't a kami. Knowing that I meant no disrespect but was rather, simply ignorant, he kindly explained to me the facts.

While we were in Dharan, I decided to call them "bishwakarmas" (from whence the term kami comes - it means world maker or world bringer). Of course, I don't want to come off sounding preachy, so feel free to call them kamis (as we know it to be a term of honor when used by us here in the states). But with all of the personal interaction I had with them, I had to quickly break the habit).

Incidentally, TBs full name is Til Bahadur Bishwakarma (Til is his first name, Bahadur is his second name, and he is a bishwakarma). Similarly, Lalit's full name is Lalit Kumar Lama (lama being sort of his caste name). For those of you who know more about this than I do - please excuse the mistakes I probably have made in this post, and please correct me (I don't have my notes in front of me, and I'm operating on little sleep right now).
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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Steven: I was sort of suprised myself. I did just get an email from a non-forumite customer who occasionally reads the forums anyway, and his comments made me want to clarify one thing: it was THEY who suggested they didn't like the term "kami" (not me). My customer warned me against trying to "change" their system, which I would never want to do. Also, I think it's perfectly okay for you all to continue using "kami" as long as you are not speaking directly to one of them (I'll choose bishwakarma because I'll have contact with them in the future, and don't want to put my foot in my mouth as I'm often apt to do!).
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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
I hope I didn't offend TB when I thanked the "kamis"
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. To me that term refers solely to those artists who forge these beautiful blades I am so addicted to!

Being a westerner it's difficult to understand the caste system. Here there is a class system but respect or honor aren't dependant on class. The people most honored here are self made people from humble beginnings,which through hard work, talent, and perseverance have transcended their given lot in life. Most children here want to be Michael Jordan and Shaq not Al Gore or GW Bush. I wish the Bishwakarmas could come visit and see how much respect and admiration the forumites and lurkers have for them!
 
OMRie: I too share your sentiment. Nobody was actually offended per se, but two people warned me, after hearing me talk about "the kamis," not to use that phrase toward them. I too use the phrase as a badge of honor, and when we gave them the goat for the puja ceremony (see other thread) on behalf of the forumites, I think they got the idea that we think they are a swell bunch of guys!
 
I talked with a couple of Nepalis from the Kami,Sherpa and Newari class. They hadn`t heard that the term Kami was derogatory.Kamies are low cast, but it is their system.
Beats this child.
Other than Brit Gurkhas,which is the regimental term,and Kipling can`t be wrong. they prefer Gorkha.That won`t change after all this history of the Gurkhas.


[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 05-17-2000).]
 
I guess the "angle" presented to me (not by more than two people, mind you) was that for a westerner to engender respect and acceptance into their realm, it might be a better idea for me to call them bishwakarmas or workers or bladesmiths.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
Well, I guess we`ll have to tell all of the Kamies,( which is also a name), that they will have to change their names because it is not US PC.
Heaven forbid that we would trade $US to the non PC.
By the way CAPT.; did you bring back any good thees?
 
As a practical matter; you may as well call people what they want to be called. The problem is that they keep changing their minds.
 
Very nice Berk. They can be had cheaper, but that`s the basic. Much better than my E-Mail to Craig.
 
Very nice Berk. They can be had cheaper, but that`s the basic. Much better than my E-Mail to Craig.
 
As always Berk, you outclass the Col. and me!
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So, I know a picture's worth a thousand words, but . . . what is that thing?

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor
 
As I understand it,the Thee is a personal defence weapon, rather than a tool. They are pretty fancy, so not for the poor. They can be neck knives; a woman might have one on a thigh. Maybe Berk knows more.
 
Colonel, your post and the caption on the link pretty well contain the sum of my knowledge on the subject of thees - Tibetan daggers with metal scabbards, usually silver mounted and ornate. No entry in Stone's Glossary of Arms and Armor or Weland's Collector's Guide to Swords, Daggers and Cutlasses. Bernard Levine calls it a "Bhutan dagger": "About 15 inches overall. Straight blade. Wood grip wrapped with silver wire. Wrought silver pommel. Silver mounted leather sheath. 18th-19th century." Of course they are still being made, with those available in the U.S. primarily made by Tibetan refugees in Nepal.
Here is another old one.
 
I should probably just start another thread, but- Does anyone else see the shadows of a scottish dirk in the THEE? Simple hilt. Symmetrical, single edge. Fullered down the spine. Pierced, embossed and otherwise tooled silver fittings. If this is a blade familiar to Nepal, then minor ethnic transitions to a highland dirk should be cake for our beloved kamis.

Can you tell I'm excited at the prospect?
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Be Worthy
 
The Thee is on my wish list. I hope to find one 50 or 60 yrs. old for about $150 US.10" to 15". I`m working on it.
Also, a 12" fancy sirupati would be neat.
I`m not a Scott, but some of my Viking relatives are. The dagger and skien dhu would be cool, if authentic.
So many weapons, so little space.
 
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