US Army and computer games?

firkin

firkin

Joined
Jan 26, 2002
Messages
2,737
If this is off topic, please move it to where-ever it belongs.

I'm not trolling, I want to know what those who've served in the the military think of the US army providing and hosting an interactive networked simulation of training/combat that appears to include actual training material. In other words a video game. Do you think this is appropriate use of defense dollars, a legimate recruiting tool, good or bad public relations, trivializing an essential part of our country? I honestly don't quite know what to make of this....I do think there must be better ways to spend the money though I've no idea how much it costs.

http://americasarmy.com/ops/index.php

"US Army Introduces "America's Army" PC Game (05.22.02) [Bacchus]

The U.S. Army today unveiled America's Army, an innovative, realistic
computer game providing civilians with an inside perspective and a virtual role in
today’s premiere land force, the U.S. Army. America’s Army players will
experience soldiering in a state-of-the-art new manner.

The America’s Army game blends two vivid simulations: Soldiers, a
role-playing portion in which players navigate life’s challenges to achieve goals,
and a first-person action game, called Operations.

Developed by the U.S. Army and a world-class team of Department of Defense
experts in simulations and virtual environments, America's Army will be
available in August. The Army will distribute America’s Army for *free* in
response to requests at America's Army and GoArmy.com, through distribution
partners that include leading computer game magazines, at Army events, at
recruiting stations, and through internet download. The game is rated “T” for
Teen by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board. "

"
SITREP (07.09.02) [Bacchus]

We've been working feverishly since 4 July, adding sixty more servers (now
totaling 110 coast-to-coast), completing the tools to provide for community
servers, and putting the final touches on more tours of duty, maps, and training
missions! .... On 25 July, we will release the first
(of what will be many) updates: U.S. Army Sniper School. This single player
update includes two training missions, where you can qualify on both the M24
and M82A1 Barrett sniper rifles. Successful completion of these training
missions will enable your character to select these sniper rifles on HomeLAN
(and registered public) servers! But be warned - only those who earned an
Expert qualification in Basic Training will qualify for Sniper School training! -
Wanna be an Airborne Ranger? On 22 August, we'll release our next batch of
updates: Airborne School and Ranger School! Airborne school includes two single
player maps: the 250-foot tower and your first C-130 jump! Once you put your
knees in the breeze, its time to test your mettle in Ranger School: two
multiplayer maps consisting of MILES team missions at mountain phase and
swamp phase. That's not all. We're also working on an in-game browser, linux
server port, and host of other features. Yes, we've been busy the past week!
More servers, providing for the addition of community servers, more missions,
and more Army training! "
 
bear with my lack of facts in this reply, but i'm trying to remember a late night discovery channel documentary.

It was about tanks and how theyve developed.

At the end they talked about what wa next for tanks, and the projects they were working on allowed the crew to be totally encased in the protective shell but retain full 360 vision. . . .or even be located hundreds of miles away from the tank whilst operating it.

The system they had was a bit Virtual reality-esq where they'd wear headsets.

The US Tankie instructor reckoned that a lot of existing tank crews found it very hard to adapt to the controls, but a high number of younger recruits found it very natural - the Nintendo generation.
 
It's an advertising tool to stimulate interest and eventually increase enlistment in the US Army. In all probability, it's very cost effective advertsing. The material has certainly been closely scrutinized ...I don't think they'd let out any secrets.
 
I worked with a company that made flying things. Their flying things went VERY fast.

The chief engineer who worked with me called the different versions of the flying things "platforms." Different platform configurations for different end uses.

When all was said and done, he said the limiting factor in the building of flying things, both now and in the future, was the insistence of the military command that a human be in the flying thing.

"If we didn't have to consider the effects on a human body, with it's consciousness, blood pressure, eye-sight...etc, we could do AMAZING things."

He speculated future aerial combat would be between two men, sitting in rooms thousands of miles apart, with computer screens and joy-sticks.



Kis
:rolleyes:
 
He speculated future aerial combat would be between two men, sitting in rooms thousands of miles apart, with computer screens and joy-sticks.
Click to expand...

That would much better then notifying the widows.

I am ok with the use of simulations and game play. The information is far more complete then what is usually available in paper form and the kids are far more tuned in to this form of presentation.

n2s
 
The game is for recruiting and is supposed to be pretty decent actually. They spent more on the silly black berets than on the game, I'm sure. Same for the "Army of One" BS...

Of course, if I were a commercial games developer working on the next Operation Flashpoint or Rogue Spear (similar military games), I would be royally pissed at the taxpayer-funded competition.
 
I'm itchin' to see what Pappy, Semper Fi, and Sarge have to say on this one. Could be some interesting stuff. :)
 
When war becomes a video game, what happens to the value and sanctity of human life? I remember hearing folks talk about the nose camera footage from "smart bombs" during Desert Storm. I.e., "oooh, aaaah, that's really cool". Sometimes it is necessary to destroy buildings/equipment, and kill large numbers of people to gain military objectives, but IMHO there's nothing "cool" about it.

Send me some of those folks who think war is "cool", and I'll take 'em down to the field hospital and show 'em some of the reality.
Or maybe I'll stick a pack on their back, a rifle in their hand, and have them hike through an area that may or may not be mined,while other people are trying to kill them.

The men and women over here are proud to be serving their country. They want to see justice done and our enemies defeated. But, unlike computers, they still have the capacity for compassion and mercy. Computers may be the wave of the future, and geeks may inherit the earth, but they'll inherit an earth won by the sweat and blood of warriors.

Sarge
 
I couldn't agree with Sarge more but, I want to think on this just a bit before I say much. And, I want to check out that site where the game is.:)
 
Let me try to clarify a couple of things:

1) I haven't seen the game, and maybe it wouldn't run on my old, slow machine with a modem. I sure don't want to download it over a modem.

2) It is my understanding that the game simulates people performing various tasks as they are currently performed by people now, not some kind of futuristic computerized combat.

I tend to agree with Sarge--

"When war becomes a video game, what happens to the value and sanctity of human life?"

As I see it, war becoming a video game can happen two ways...(a)new video-game like remote control weapons that kill real people, (b)treating the preparation of and sending of real people into harm's way with the objective of killing other real people if necessary as though it were a video game.

(a)could lead to forgetting that the enemy and nearby noncombatants are people.

(b)could lead to forgetting that the enemy and nearby noncombatants and our own forces are people.

If there is a danger to this, I think it more resembles (b). Of course, new additions to the game could possibly add (a) to the mix. I think that the fact that US Army itself is producing and promoting these products may to some degree "legitimate" and intensify any shift towards such a way of viewing war.

We've all seen what can happen when a computer on the other end of the phone is trying to "help" us instead of a person, I don't want to to think about the consequences of adopting that kind of attitude towards people when running a war.
 
When I was in the service 50 years ago there were no computers so I have no personal experience to call upon in the military/computer arena. However....

I do have some experience with flight simulators which are very sophisticated and reality based computer games. I flew a VTOL simulator and repeated crashed. If I'd been flying the real thing I wouldn't be here today. The display (you sat inside a large globe with the world around you displayed 360 degrees in all directions) and controls (cockpit exactly the same as the real item) were real. It was as close to reality as you could get without putting yourself in harm's way. Simulators like this have undoubtedly saved countless lives (probably my own) and are worth every penny spent. Airline pilots routinely go through emergency procedures in simulators so they'll be prepared just in case they meet up with the real thing.

But there ain't no substitute for brains, blood and guts -- and a couple of other items like human compassion and honor.
 
When I was in High School, my stepdad was stationed at Williams AFB outside Chandler AZ. He was in flight simulator/link trainer maintenance. He was able to give me some time in it. Thought it was great! Watching all the dials, controlling the flight. Thought I had done a real good job until I landed. I was asked if I wanted Tuplips or roses? They hadn't explained to me about the altimeter adjustment. Soooo , I landed about 180 ft below local altitude. Thought that was pretty dirty of them, but I have always remembered that important fact. So I went on to become a N Wpns Maint Supt.
 
Originally posted by Sylvrfalcn
Computers may be the wave of the future, and geeks may inherit the earth, but they'll inherit an earth won by the sweat and blood of warriors
Click to expand...

Two thumbs up for Sarge. It couldn't be said better.

There is a science fiction story from the seventies, by Robert Sheckley, it's about Armageddon (don't remember the title). The end of the world comes, humanity is called to fight in the Last Battle against Satan. Since the army is already fully robotized, thousands of automatic tanks and planes fight against the foul army of Evil. The robots fight well and the battle is won. The sky opens and Jesus descends on Earth. Generals assembled in the underground command center located hundreds of miles from the battlefield along with robot operators start to congratulate themselves, when they realize that Jesus resurrects the fallen robots and takes them to heaven with him, leaving all humans on deserted Earth.
 
firkin

I think it is a great idea. Our other uncle (Uncle Sam) spends gazillions on everything imaginable including aid to foreign countries. If this project gets our young people interested in the military, great! Our country needs bright tech savy people in the various service branches. This might stir some interest where none was before. We all know that the enemy is at the gate. Who will we send to defend us?

Semp --
 
I have mixed feelings about the infantry simulator thingy. For certain the flight and tank simulators are useful and probably save lotsa $$$ in fuel and equipment.

I haven't played the one in the link but I wonder how useful it would be playing the game and learning tactics instead of learning outside in the dirt.

Maybe I'll download it and have a better opinion after that.
 
We've already got unmanned aerial vehicles (Predator UAV)capable of launching air to ground ordinance in an offensive role. I may be a bit neanderthal towards where computer technology's going, but it strikes me that "garbage in, garbage out" could just as easily be "garbage in, body bags out".

There's a rancher in King, Texas, who got a pretty large settlement from Fort Hood, after they accidently laid in an artillery fire mission on his ranch. Hmmm, somebody fat finger the wrong coordinates into the fire control computer?
:grumpy:

Sarge
 
I do think one needs to be aware of the end results and believe it's a good idea to give the pusher of the button a tour of end results (blood, guts, death and destruction) before you ever give him the button to push.
 
Gentlemen, the problem as I see it probably will not agree with a lot of people but, we already have a problem in this country with our kids playing games that are unsuitable for some young minds to handle these days. I don't really think that the army has made arrangements to make sure that these computer games don't get into the hands of many young and impressional minds that are inclined to kill each other at best.

It appears that these downloads are free so there is little control over who can download them. I also feel that whoever thought up this idea has never been to war. If game is what they call it, I didn't think much of the game.

There is also a great difference in training in the field and trying to prepare for war sitting behind a keyboard and clicking a mouse. Many of the games that are available to our young kid right now are blamed for giving the kids the ideas that have turned out dealing in death. Most kids can probably handle the games as games. Others don't seem to do so well. There are shrinks all over the US that will tell you how some of the kids react to these games. It is like any other kind of situation where weapons are handled. Mentally weak and warped people should not be handed any kind of gun.

The doctor that I heard not too long ago had the idea that being able to shoot at people on an computer screen enough could lessen a kids felling for the value of life. I guess it just gets so easy to pull the trigger.

I really did not want to get into this thread either because of mixed feeling I have about this and the military in general. But, I get a bad feeling in the pit of my gut when the upper echelon of the military can think of war as a game, period.
 
There's a huge difference in pulling the trigger that zaps a guy on a screen and pulling the trigger while you're looking a fellow human being in the eye.

I'm with you on this one, Pappy.
 
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