Warning! Kydex rivets splitting

[North Arm Knives]

Hello fellow makers! This is a quick fyi for you about split kydex eyelets.

I went to make a bunch of sheaths for our fillet knife yesterday and had a large number of eyelets split on me. As much as 80% of them! Usually we get the odd split eyelet but until now the norm has been less than 1%.

We just received a batch of 1000 black-coated brass eyelets (same type as we always use) from our supplier and it was these new ones that I was having the problem with. After a few I thought perhaps it was me (using to much pressure or something of that nature) but as I set a few more I began to realize it must be something else. I went on to check the flaring dies for damage or misalignment; everything checked out. That left the eyelets themselves.

Luckily we had 30 or so of the previous batch left to do some comparisons. I measured the length, inside diameter and outside diameter which all checked out as the same between the old and new eyelets. I tried to measure wall thickness but couldn't easily get a consistent reading. Then I weighed 14 each of the new and old eyelets on an accurate mini scale. I found the new eyelets to be at least 10% lighter than the old ones. This was very repeatable and consistent; I weighed a few sets of each type. Next I tried setting 10 each of the old and new. This last test confirmed my suspicion; 8/10 of the new eyelets split while none of the old ones did.

We called the supplier and they confirmed they are "aware of the problem" and are doing some testing. We found it a little disappointing that they wouldn't have sent out a notice or recalled them because there could be a lot of people out there using these defective rivets ( and pulling there hair out)!

Anyway, I thought I'd notify all of you in case you also start seeing a lot of split rivets. I intentionally haven't named the supplier as we are in the process of getting a replacement batch of rivets. PM if you want more details.

-mike

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Annealing the rivets by heating them to red and quenching should solve the problem.

 

[North Arm Knives]

I didn't specify but they are brass not steel; I edited the original post to mention that. Would your advice still apply? I'm pretty sure they either started using a different alloy or the wall thickness is less. Could be wrong though...

Annealing the rivets by heating them to red and quenching should solve the problem.

 

[12345678910]

Annealing the rivets by heating them to red and quenching should solve the problem.

I didn't specify but they are brass not steel; I edited the original post to mention that. Would your advice still apply? I'm pretty sure they either started using a different alloy or the wall thickness is less. Could be wrong though...

Yes that's for brass

The copper alloys act opposite to steel in terms of the Quench / anneal

 

[Britt_Askew]

I had problems recently too but with the black ones. I am using the "good" dies and rivets. I was having 1/3 to 1/2 split . real frustrating. After searching here for an answer I started putting oil on the rivets before setting and that helped a lot but was still splitting some.

 

[North Arm Knives]

Hmm good to know. Although it may be possible, we won't be bothering to try to fix these as they should come ready to use from the manufacturer! Also they have a black coating which would probably get burned off by trying heat treat them.

Yes that's for brass

The copper alloys act opposite to steel in terms of the Quench / anneal

 

[North Arm Knives]

Yea we are using black coated brass ones, with good dies and an arbor press. Like I said, before this latest batch we split maybe 1% of rivets, probably less. I agree, a little oil or wax on the die does help insure nice flaring.

I had problems recently too but with the black ones. I am using the "good" dies and rivets. I was having 1/3 to 1/2 split . real frustrating. After searching here for an answer I started putting oil on the rivets before setting and that helped a lot but was still splitting some.

 

[North Arm Knives]

**Update**

Our supplier issued us a full refund today. Just to clarify they aren't manufacturing the eyelets themselves. They have been good about this whole situation and responsive to our emails. I think they are as surprised as us at the sudden change in quality. They basically said: all of their stock (at least in the type we are using is affected) with a new shipment of the inferior ones mixed in with the older (good) stock. They also said they don't have a source of non-affected eyelets (yet).

On their website they claim that all their eyelets are american made; we found this hard to believe because this sudden change in quality smells of overseas manufacturing, probably a change in stock thickness or alloy, or perhaps improper annealing as others mentioned above... US manufactures tend to have strict quality controls and wouldn't put out this type of inferior product. When we inquired who their manufacturer was all they said is "they are the top US manufacturer of eyelets" and they had just found out today that this batch of eyelets was not made in the manufacturer's US facility because of cost concerns

If it is true that this "top manufacturer" has moved some production overseas I fear there may be a lot of eyelet issues on the horizon for a lot of makers. Anyone else having similar problems?

I have a fairly good guess who the manufacturer is but I'm not sure. I don't want to jump to any conclusions. Is there much competition when it comes to US eyelet manufacturers?

-mike

 

[12345678910]

Hmm good to know. Although it may be possible, we won't be bothering to try to fix these as they should come ready to use from the manufacturer!

I agree

If it is true that this "top manufacturer" has moved some production overseas I fear there may be a lot of eyelet issues on the horizon for a lot of makers. Anyone else having similar problems?

Some years ago I tried getting eyelets and dies locally at a good fastener supplier.

No good, lots of splitting.

If not splitting then mushroming off center and needing rework too.

All the coloured ones the colour would either peel off, or burnish a shiny spot
I either went to brass blacking the brass rivets, or using shiny nickel finished ones.


I upgraded to a more expensive die set and changed eyelet retailers, that fixed it - still working on that batch


But I sympathise, you should be able to rely on good suppliers and when you can't it costs HUGE time and money.


You can try asking for certifications of actual material specs and origin on every shipment,
but like you see - they keep it on file and just send you the paperwork they have rather than making sure the paperwork matches that batch.
Maybe if they deal with aircraft / aerospace they are used to dong that.


If it wasn't for Aldo, you would have that on most of the steel you buy too.



Something that I think gets ignored in kydex eyelets = you can buy damn near any length you want in steps of 1/32 " or something like that

An 8-8 eyelet is something like 8/32 diameter and 8/32 long

Depending on what thickness material you are using, you might need to fine tune the crimp with a slightly longer or shorter eyelet

I think the knife suppliers don't stock many sizes because that would be an inventory nightmare for them,
but if you go direct to the real supplier you can probably get exactly what you want in 1/32" increments

 

[North Arm Knives]

I agree




Some years ago I tried getting eyelets and dies locally at a good fastener supplier.

No good, lots of splitting.

If not splitting then mushroming off center and needing rework too.

All the coloured ones the colour would either peel off, or burnish a shiny spot
I either went to brass blacking the brass rivets, or using shiny nickel finished ones.


I upgraded to a more expensive die set and changed eyelet retailers, that fixed it - still working on that batch


But I sympathise, you should be able to rely on good suppliers and when you can't it costs HUGE time and money.


You can try asking for certifications of actual material specs and origin on every shipment,
but like you see - they keep it on file and just send you the paperwork they have rather than making sure the paperwork matches that batch.
Maybe if they deal with aircraft / aerospace they are used to dong that.


If it wasn't for Aldo, you would have that on most of the steel you buy too.



Something that I think gets ignored in kydex eyelets = you can buy damn near any length you want in steps of 1/32 " or something like that

An 8-8 eyelet is something like 8/32 diameter and 8/32 long

Depending on what thickness material you are using, you might need to fine tune the crimp with a slightly longer or shorter eyelet

I think the knife suppliers don't stock many sizes because that would be an inventory nightmare for them,
but if you go direct to the real supplier you can probably get exactly what you want in 1/32" increments

Yea we have been using the same eylet from the same supplier for a long time and it is the right length. They worked beautiful until this last batch!

 

[North Arm Knives]

So we talked to someone at Siska inc this morning and they confirmed that they are not manufacturing for the supplier we got the bad batch from (knifekits) and therefor are not the source of the faulty eyelets. This is great news because we should be able to get good rivets from Siska or one of their distributors.

 

[AVigil]

Knife kits....ugh

I need to place an order. Let us know where you find the good eyelets available

 

[JG Custom Metal Works]

I just got in an order with eyelets in from knifekits about two weeks ago. I really hope I didn't get any from the bad batch.

Urg is right Adam.

 

[North Arm Knives]

@adam : Will do. I'll keep this thread updated with any news.

@JG custom: what type did you get? #8-9? We ordered some #8-6 around the same time and those were fine. I'd be interested to hear how yours perform.

 

[Josh Mason]

The S-61 (1/4) Siska eyelets that Tracy sells over at USA Knifemaker are the best in the business. I've never had one of them split on me, or flake off. They are heavy duty eyelets that have an oxide finish that stays put when you flare them. No oils, grease, plastic bag trickery necessary. I recommend getting the die set that Tracy sells too. I just use an old heavy machinist vise and my cheapo drill press for all of my eyelet pressing.

 

[North Arm Knives]

The S-61 (1/4) Siska eyelets that Tracy sells over at USA Knifemaker are the best in the business. I've never had one of them split on me, or flake off. They are heavy duty eyelets that have an oxide finish that stays put when you flare them. No oils, grease, plastic bag trickery necessary. I recommend getting the die set that Tracy sells too. I just use an old heavy machinist vise and my cheapo drill press for all of my eyelet pressing.

Good to know, we've heard the same thing from others about the siska eyelets. After some checking around we made an order yesterday from USA knifemaker for some of the s-61 siska eyelets. Looking forward to having reliable rivets again!

 

[North Arm Knives]

Just picked up 1000 of the siska s-61 rivets from USA knifmaker. I did a couple sheaths and they work like a charm! They're more expensive than the ones we were using from knifekits but worth it!

-mike