Alot of talk lately about defects and such. Referring to vinny's thread in particular where he's noticing some defects on a spyderco and people are telling him to buy a custom if he wants perfection because spyderco is "mass produced." Are they really? How many knives does Spyderco, Benchmade, CRKT, etc... make in a year. SAK's are definitely mass produced, as you can get them almost anywhere. But I can't imagine Spyderco making more than 10,000 knives in a year. In which case they should be perfect. A folding knife is a simple tool that can be inspected for defects in less than 30 seconds. I've bought new cars that are perfect. I really think a folding knife that costs more than $100 should be perfect to the naked eye. Am I crazy?
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What exactly does mass produced mean?
- Thread starter nenofury
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You haven't bought new cars that are perfect, I'll say right now they do not exist. This goes for any car by any manufactuer, look close enough and you'll find a "defect" of some sort. It all depends on what you think is acceptable, I find a small burr on the edge "acceptable" much as I would a body panel on a McLaren that wasn't aligned with the door to a tolerance of 0.001". Yes it's sorta different in that the edge is a performance related aspect, but it's also the part that should hopefully see the most wear. It's like asking why they haven't inspected each individual tread on new tires to make sure they're all the exact same size on every car that leaves the plant.
And did you look at some of vinny's pictures of that so called "defect". Now pictures don't usually tell the whole story, but even in those super closeup macro shots I was hard pressed to see what he was talking about at first, it almost looks like a piece of fuzz or a lighting artifact. If I were at a show and handled the knife for a minute or so I'd probably miss it, I don't tend to pay all that much attention to the edge unless it's really really bad. My concentration is focused on lockup, even primary grinds, and consistency in machining, not necessarily "perfection". If I'd bought the knife it's something I'd probably notice on a much closer 30 minute "fascinated by his new toy" inspection
And did you look at some of vinny's pictures of that so called "defect". Now pictures don't usually tell the whole story, but even in those super closeup macro shots I was hard pressed to see what he was talking about at first, it almost looks like a piece of fuzz or a lighting artifact. If I were at a show and handled the knife for a minute or so I'd probably miss it, I don't tend to pay all that much attention to the edge unless it's really really bad. My concentration is focused on lockup, even primary grinds, and consistency in machining, not necessarily "perfection". If I'd bought the knife it's something I'd probably notice on a much closer 30 minute "fascinated by his new toy" inspection
this is my take on this. ANYTHING that is mass produced has the occacional error. just imagine some guy that hates his job and all he does is look at 3 figure spydrco knives that he cant buy. he is gunna just let some slide. also the odds are stacked against the big corps. most companies that mass produce make multiple models of knives, lets say they make 5 models, and they pump out 20,000 knives of each. you are looking at 100,000 knives. there is bound to be an error in a couple.
custom knives are perfect becasue a knife maker does not make nearly as much as the corps, that is kinda common sense. they make each knife to the specifications of whoever is ordering that knife, they take their sweet time making it to make a sweet product. also they dont need to meet the earnings in q4
hope i put it into perspective.
custom knives are perfect becasue a knife maker does not make nearly as much as the corps, that is kinda common sense. they make each knife to the specifications of whoever is ordering that knife, they take their sweet time making it to make a sweet product. also they dont need to meet the earnings in q4
hope i put it into perspective.
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And even with custom knives, you can find imperfections, some makers more than others, heck some makers (and the respective buyers) find them completely acceptable and write it off as "character". Depending on the knife and its respective pricetag I will to. When we start going over the 600 dollar mark is when I get picky, more than 2000 and I generally figure that unless I really nitpick I shouldn't find anything wrong. I've never seen a perfect knife at any show, many however that in my opinion no human should have had the skill to make, obviously I was wrong. 
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
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Market, materials, design, price. Spyderco, Benchmade, CRKT, Kershaw, Camillus, all do real well, considering that they sell to a reasonably sophisticated market, use a variety of materials in ever more innovative designs, and have to keep prices competitive over a broad range of price points.
Could a power dip on a robotic assembly line be responsible for a defect? We don't need to suppose employees are lazy. Materials are stubborn, the automated manufacturing process is inflexible, defects will occur. That's why the basic warrantee in any industry refers to defects in materials or manufacture found within a reasonable time of purchase.
Perfection is not a necessary characteristic of any tool. Function and appearance are. Improvement in either is in the hands of the purchaser. If you aren't perfect yourself, why should your possessions be any better? Are they worth more than you?
Could a power dip on a robotic assembly line be responsible for a defect? We don't need to suppose employees are lazy. Materials are stubborn, the automated manufacturing process is inflexible, defects will occur. That's why the basic warrantee in any industry refers to defects in materials or manufacture found within a reasonable time of purchase.
Perfection is not a necessary characteristic of any tool. Function and appearance are. Improvement in either is in the hands of the purchaser. If you aren't perfect yourself, why should your possessions be any better? Are they worth more than you?
- Joined
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- 6,117
I don't think you appreciate the economic differences between a custom made knife and a mass distributed knife. Notice that I used the word "distributed" rather than manufactured. That makes a big difference in the economics. Back when I was young I had a friend who owned a knife shop. She would let me order things from her distributer at her normal price. That meant that I got the knives at half price. When I look at internet prices I generally see a hard floor that you don't find knives for less than half of list price so I would guess that that is still the industry standard. I would guess that at other levels of the distribution chain there are roughly equivalent mark ups of about 50% of that 50%. So I would guess that on a $100 knife Spyderco receives roughly $25.00. That $25.00 has to support their factory, distribution and marketing departments, and there advertising budgets. With those overheads they probably have $15.00 left to produce the knife.
On the other hand a custom maker sells direct to the customer or through one level of store. If the product is sold through a store the price is probably somewhat marked up. If he sells direct to a customer for $300.00 he gets $300.00. If he sells through a store he may get $200.00 (and the store sells it for $400). So on the average he might get $250 per knife. With his low volumes he has to make higher unit profit to survive so sets say he skims off $100 of profit beyond what he would have received as a wage slave making the knife. In the end he can put $150 dollars of materials and labor into making a knife perfect. So do you expect Spyderco's $15.00 fabrication to have the same quality as the custom maker's $150.00 fabrication?
On the other hand a custom maker sells direct to the customer or through one level of store. If the product is sold through a store the price is probably somewhat marked up. If he sells direct to a customer for $300.00 he gets $300.00. If he sells through a store he may get $200.00 (and the store sells it for $400). So on the average he might get $250 per knife. With his low volumes he has to make higher unit profit to survive so sets say he skims off $100 of profit beyond what he would have received as a wage slave making the knife. In the end he can put $150 dollars of materials and labor into making a knife perfect. So do you expect Spyderco's $15.00 fabrication to have the same quality as the custom maker's $150.00 fabrication?