What price for new maker?

A

AKY

Joined
Oct 29, 1998
Messages
114
Some of you will recognize that I have recently started making knives. I've had my first four blades treated and they are on their way back to me as we speak. Rob Simonich thought they are pretty good for my first effort.

Now, I eventually would like to start selling what I make. Problem is I don't know what to ask for in price. I can calculate the cost of materials, but what's a reasonable price to ask for an amateur maker? What did some of you ask for your first knives? My stuff won't look as refined, for sure. I figured I would post some pictures and get some feedback, maybe go from there.

What do you pros think?

Tony
 
You need to attend some local knife shows and check out the other Knifemakers prices. When I started in '79 I made a 4" drop point hunter with bolsters and stag and was lucky to get $75.00. Now I would price it at least at $300.00. Of course that was more than a 1,000 knives ago. Some people equate price to quality, that is wrong. You need to compare your workmanship to the other knifemakers, and then set a price that you and your customer will be happy with. It has to be a win-win deal.
 
You need to be fair.
Even if your finished product is on par with the best, you need to "pay your dues". I'll spend real money on what I like, but that is sacred ground and I expect a quality product.
A reputation is built slowly and carefully, and is probably more fragile than one knife.
just my opinion
JW
 
I don't pay much attention to reputation. I go by design, materials, fit and finish, and what the maker can tell me about his heat treatment. I would much rather buy two knives from a new guy doing great work than one knife from a famous guy doing the same work.

I remember a conversation that I had with a famous guy once. He had a really nice looking fighter on his table. I fell in love with the design, but the blade was ATS-34. I asked him if he would make me one from A-2. He said, "Why?". I asked him how the ATS-34 was heat treated. He said, "The standard way". Cryo quench? "Na, doesn't need it." I said, "Nice talkin' to ya'".
 
Thanks for the response. There is a local show this weekend. I'll check out the selection and prices. I know I'll have to start off asking for modest prices. I'm using good steel (ATS-34, 440C), Micarta and stablized wood, and heat treated by Rob Simonich (Rc 60). I still want to try and get some pics on the forum. I'll keep everyone informed.

Thanks again,
Tony
 
DDP (Damn Double Post)



[This message has been edited by AKY (edited 26 March 1999).]
 
Personally, you should think of this as less of a job and more of a hobby that makes you money. In my mind it makes it easier to admit the fact that I could make be making more money back in the fast food biz.
Actually, My first customer is my friend, I'm making him a bowie knife, 1/4 flat ground O1, linen micarta handles and a Kydex sheath. The price I'm selling it to him is $55. I'm looking into sending it off for heat treat sometime this week, so if anyone wants to make any recomendations that would be more than helpful.
 
Adamantium you might try Howard Clark, here is his web adress www.mvfindex.html. He does a marquench and I am going to send some work to him also.
Chris Top of Texas Knives
www.toptexknives.com

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Without wishing to slow you down, I think (if you're only getting your first blades back from heat treating) that you should focus your energy and skills on finishing those four knives. Only once you're finished and gone through the whole handle fitting, fit & finish, blade finishing processes will you :

1. Know how well you can do it, and
2. Know how much time, effort & materials
it takes to achieve the finished product.

Don't make the mistake of thinking of the sale, before you've got the product right. Your customers will pick that up. Focus on the product, then the buyers and their money will come.

Hopefully you will go on to make hundreds of knives . . . many of those will fail in the workshop (broken blades, cracked handles, etc) and many others will fail your own quality control. These are all part of the learning process, which will go on for the rest of your life . . !!

The other guys are right . . . you need to get to knife shows and compare your product with other, similar products. Unfortunately most folks will not give your the feedback you really need (they'll mostly pat you on the back and say that your work is good). It may well be, but you need to connect with people who can give you honest, forthright, and sometimes painful criticism. Hold on to them, they will be your most valuable asset.

Regards, HILTON
 
Hilton: Don't worry, I've made about 15 knives so far, none of which I send off for heat treat, but I have finished some of them just as practice. I'm also going to make Kydex sheaths for other knives before I'm going to make one for my friends knife.

Sincerely,
Adam

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Cut open a mans box and he will be happy for a day. Teach him to cut and he will be happy forever.
 
Aside from the cost of materials, you have to decide what your time is worth making them. Of course, your time can't start off at $100 an hour! But I think people will pay a fair price for quality, and the chance to get the first knife from a new maker. Imagine if you bought the very first Loveless!
smile.gif
 
AKY, I'm not a maker, but I do produce a knife once in awhile, in addition to finishing kit knife blades for articles. This is what I recommend to a lot of people wishing to get started. By beginning with kit knives, you quickly learn how to install both handles and guards and finish these parts of the knives. Then you can sell them and get your money in materials back. Once you master these areas, then you can go on to shape your own blades.

Here, I recommend you buy a simple 6X48 belt sander with a 9-inch disc, something available from Sears and other sources. Make flat ground blades for starters, and learn to satin finish first. Then you can buy a simple bench motor and buffs and attempt mirror polishes. Personally, I like satin finishes because they look nice when properly done. The buffer still works on the handles. Hollow ground blades, I feel, are tough to learn to do properly, the reason I still stick with flat grinds.

Prices you get should cover your material costs, but figuring labor is tough. I might spend 20-30 hours on a hunter and there's no way I can charge say $10 hour for labor. So I have to eat that charge. I know pros who can make a hunter in maybe 3 to 5 hours, because they have it down pat, and probably have three or four belt grinders all set to go for different operations.
 

AKL
Most knifemakers agree that the trade is not kind to new makers who expect to actually earn money at it because of that favourite term "paying your dues".

In part it means the cost to you in ruined material while you are trying to get a professional fit and finish on a knife. Another part is the cost of exploring new designs as unique to yourself as possible while still maintaining the form that allows the knife to function properly. Lastly it refers to the cost of getting out to meet the public, going to shows, advertising and such. These costs are rather significant.

The other alternative is to stay close to home and advertise by word of mouth and hope that you don't run out of friends to buy your product, it doesn't cost nearly as much as traveling to distant shows.

I don't want to discourage you but at this point in your career it is best to concentrate on making the best quality knives as possible and allow the market to set the price by gradually increasing the selling price until the public begins to lose interest then drop it back a little until you have a better product to offer.
The key here is always strive to offer better quality and never be satisfied with what you have now.



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george
 
I have been making knives and going to the local shows for a couple of years now, and I still face some of the same problems. I was at a show this last weekend and was set up next to a maker who has been making knives for over 15 years. I had several people tell me that my knives were as good as any at the show, but in reality I just sold 3 knives while the established makers sold knives totaling in the thousands of dollars.
You just have to establish a customer base that is not dependant on friends and family. Your work may be good, but it will not demand the price that the established makers can get.
For example, I had a knife on my table that is by far my best yet. It is a drop point blade ground from ATS-34 with stainless guard and Blue Mammoth scales. The knife is flawless and almost every person who came to my table, picked the knife up and admired it, but it did not sell. Why? I really don't know, as I thought I had it priced right. I had $225 on it and only had one offer on the last afternoon of $150, which I turned down because I have almost that in materials. Established makers on each side of me were selling similar knives with stag, wood and micarta scales for $275. So go figure.
Just keep trying, and if you love knifemaking like I do, then maybe sticking to it will pay off in the future, if not I still have a hobby that I love.
Good Luck,
Mike C

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mconner@luminatorusa.com
Killing the dog wont cure the bite.

 
Drop-Point,

Your post reminded me of an interesting phenomenon we have seen with custom makers exhibiting at shows.

When 1st exhibiting at a show the buyers give one a passing glance, looking for anything unusual, and taking note of your name and brochure.

In the 2nd year they will recognize your face, acknowledge that you made the effort to do the show a 2nd time, and check the quality of your work (to see if it is still up to standard).

In the 3rd year they will acknowledge you openly, check your work again, and with the view that you are obviously serious about your craft, buy a knife.

From then on you are considered part of the scene and they will come looking for you at subsequent shows.

It has led us to the conclusion that to succeed in the long term one has to exhibit at any one show for at least 3 consecutive years before deciding whether or not it is viable.

There are obviously exceptions to this rule, but they are exceptions . . . I'd be interested to hear if others have experienced this.

Regards, HILTON
 
Hilton
your analysis of the situation is remarkably accurate here in Canada as well. It reads like my own experience when I was starting out.
As you already know those first few years can be very lonely and disheartening for a new maker. I wish that knife collectors would take time to stop and get to know the new people, the makers would appreciate someone to chat with at least so they can get a feeling for what the market is looking for. Just one attaboy goes a long way.

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george
 
Ok Mike here goes.

First, some caveat's.

1) This is my opinion.
2) I will not use names
3) My view will come from a different location than yours. Because I am a Dealer I do not buy into hype. I want proof. I dont reward for potential, I pay for excellence.
I view knives as investments, as should you. Not the type that you will put your kids through college with. But the type that will invest your time, talents, passion and money into.

No new knife maker deservers the same price as the veteran knifemaker. This does not mean that dont ask it and in some cases actually receive it.

There are many veteran knife makers currently making knives today that are overpaid for thier knives. Many continue to reap benefits from previous work and reputation. Even though the quality of their work continues to decline.

This happens for generally two reasons. First, erosion of physical skills. Secondly, erosion of integrity.

The key to pricing for the maker is to understand that you need to have another form of income for at least the first 5 years of making knives. As Hilton pointed out it is going to take at least 3 years of shows to establish yourself at one show.

For most new knife makers, you will be lucky if your knives pay for your materials, utilities, equipment, advertising and other business expenses. Understand that this is common for in every form of business. Even the IRS expects you to lose money your first 3 out 5 years. With this in mind, dont expect to earn a salary.

For consumers, educate yourself. Figure out what a $300 knife looks like. Yes, there are differences in a $300 and a $350.00 knife. The more educated you are about metalury, construction tecniques and materials (both their uses and their costs)the better you can justify the cost of something.

For instance, did you know that jigged bone is the shin bone of a cow. Cost $1.00 (maybe). How about Stablized woods that are so popular. Spalted Maple and White Pine are the two most common woods used. They are then put under pressure and injected with dye and a sealant of some type, epoxy is a common one.

How much does Pearl cost, gold lip Pearl, black lip Pearl, Abolone, Paua Shell, Sea Snail.

What is the cost per foot for ATS-34, BG-42, 440V, 440C. What is the difference in cost between Stainless Steel Damascus and Carbon Steel Damascus. Did you figure in shipping costs???

What is a CNC and how does it differ from a CNC "work station". How does Lazer differ from wire and water jet, which is better and why. How does it effect the steel?

If you are buying knives that cost over $300 and you dont know the answer to these questions, as a consumer you will not make a smart purchase.

If you are maker and you do not know the answers to these questions. How will you be able to quote prices for "custom" knives.

The point to the above rambling is; that there is alot to learn about the making of knives. If you have been buying knives for the last couple of years and can't answer these questions. Imagine how difficult it would be for a part time maker to know all this in just a few years. They are still working on getting that belt finish just right.

The saying goes, "you pay to go to school". Both makers and collectors pay their dues.

All of us realize that the very best, never have anything "handed" to them. They become the best because of the price they are willing to pay. This price is not just monetary, it is also physical and emotional.

I have been involved in custom knives for over 15 years. I have bought, sold and traded more custom knives than I can remember. I am still continuing to learn.

Here are some tips:

1) Makers always charge less than your knives are worth. It's always easier to raise prices than it is to lower them.

2) Makers, work to create an aftermarket for your work. This will stimulate sales for you.

3) Makers, work with dealers. Slimy as they are, they will increase both your sales and your reputation.


4) You will know when it's time to raise your prices. This time comes when all you take home from a show is a table cover!

5) Treat the customer with the respect they deserve. Without them, you will be back at your "real" job quicker than you want to be.

Collectors:

1) Buy what you like. However, make sure it is worth the money you are paying.

2) Ask "educated" questions of makers. The more you know, the faster you can seperate the experienced maker from the novice.

3) Treat the maker with the respect do them. Do not insult them by offering $100 for a $300 knife. Ask to pick up a knife, and place it gently on the table, dont drop it.

4) Read books, ask questions and attend knife shows.

Hope this helps.



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Great topic. Determining a fair price for my knives and services (engraving) over the last few years has been the toughest aspect of the knifemaking business for me. I have asked numerous makers and a few engravers about this topic, and I always get vague answers-if any. Most guys will change the subject or shrug their shoulders while mumbling something inaudible. These are the same guys who will usually spend hours helping me with any technical question I have. The reason why they do this, I think, is that there is no correct answer.

Right now, I am concerned with covering costs while developing a devoted customer base. This means that I have to sell some simple, low cost (but well made) knives, while offering some of the higher end stuff to show what I can do. I know that I am going to have to bite the bullet for a while, but there are few businesses where this isn't the case. The first few years I am not worried about making a profit. For me, it is a learning experience.

It seems that most successful knifemakers make most of their living from a small number of customers that enjoy that specific maker's work (repeat business). This type of relationship takes time, and good communication/people skills. One maker I know said he really isn't selling his knives, but himself. I believe him. I have been to so many shows were guys making awesome knives had no traffic because they presented themselves in a manner that was negative or inapproachable. If you want to command a good price for your knives, it would be a good idea to polish up your sales/people skills. Quality work is important, but so is sales ability.


 
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