What's up with 440C

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fandorin

Joined
Jan 9, 2001
Messages
127
I have read through many forums and often the common theme was that 440C is somewhat inferior steel. However I could not find a posting that would explain why it is not " up to modern standards" like some of the postings mentioned. Can anybody knowledgeable please explain to me what are the advantages and disatvantages of this steel? All I know is that it is stainless.Has anybody had an experience with this steel in the salt water? Alex.
 
440a is really crappy steel. many knock-offs are made of this low-end steel. 440c is very decent. I have a klotzli walker liner lock thats made out of 440c and its performed very well. 440v is a top of the line steel, usually only seen in expensive blades. There are many grades of 440, varying widely on performance...
 
It's good for resisting rust, not so good for holding an edge conpaired to the newer stuff. I've made a knife foe a Marine Force Recon, they go in sea water all the time. It started showing rust in a year. Now he uses tuff-cloth on it. This knife has a bead blast finish, a polished finish wouldn't rust near as fast.
 
Well, 440A can be decent, especially in fixed blades where more toughness is needed, if heat-treated properly (people say SOG's heat treatment of 440A is very good).

440B and 440C have higher carbon contents, so they will hold an edge better, but they won't be quite as tough as 440A.

Now, CPM440V is (as far as I know) unrelated to the 440 line of steels. I believe it's actually called CPM60V, and there are other steels in the CPM line (CPM90V, etc).
 
440C is almost an ideal stainless for cutlery. It is my favorite after Damasteel. Anything harder is too hard to maintain, in my opinion, and lacking in toughness. Anything softer likely belongs in the kitchen. Take care.
 
440C is a fine steel, just not the "latest and greatest". I'd gladly pick it over the crop of AUS steels any time.
 
I have some custom Kitchen knives made out of 440C and they are performing really well. 440C doesn't get the same attention as the newer steels and isn't as marketable in an ad campain but, it is still a very good steel for use in knives in general. After all, how many of us use a 1095 steel knife with good results?

In the right environment, 440C could be the ideal steel. After all, you are balancing the available properties so, if beef one side up, they other starts to fail. 440C is a good steel to fit the middle of the road. Good stain resistance, good edge retention, not too tough to resharpen, etc.
 
440C is about ideal for me. I think my favorite knife in 440C is the griptillian, by benchmade. It's a good steel for OK edgeholding, great toughness and great corrosion resistance.
 
I appreciate everybody's input. So far from replies I have very good opinion about 440C steel. Has not seen much criticism. What are the steels that are superior to 440C in terms of resistance to corrosion?For me this is very important quality. Nothing pisses me off more than seeng stains on the blade. I do not mind to sharpen the knife few more extra times. This is why I do not like ATS 34. I know that there will be many people here reporting their great experiences with ATS 34, but I have tried many factory and custom made knives made from this steel and they all stain terribly. Every time I thought that it might be just that particular knife that gets rust on the blade quickly and as soon as I tried another ATS 34 knife the same story repeated. It seems that for me 440C would be the better choice.
 
If you are a nut about corrosion, you might want to try Talonite or Stellite. CPM-S60V (formerly CPM-440V) is about as good as steel gets in that regard, but 440C and BG-42 really hold up as well. BG-42 is my personal favorite for a combonation of toughness, edge holding and ease of maintenance (sharpening).
 
fandorin -- A lot of people are very fond of VG-10 as well. I only have one knife in that steel, and haven't worked it into my daily rotation as I once thought I would.

The 440A which was perhaps unfairly trashed above, is a very stain resistant steel. AUS6, in my experience does well also. It is very similar to 440A in composition. Not super great in the edge holding department, but take a wicked edge, quite stain resistant, and generally inexpensive.

Can't remember -- few short term memories -- if you spoke about any specific knives. And, don't know what your budget is, or exactly which type of knife you're seeking. CRKT has AUS6 for the blade steel in the majority of their offerings. Their knives have good fit and finish. Some liner lock problems have been reported, primarily with the KFF. Just a day or two ago, heard first complaint about an M16 lock failing, and that situation isn't clear enough to understand what happened.

I'm a solid Spyderco fan. They make some great knives. One of their best, IMO, is the Native FRN. FRN is like Zytel, just a different brand. The blade on this medium sized knife is made of S60V/CPM440V. A great edge holding steel, and quite stain resistant. A majority of people find hte handle quite ergonomic, but some can't stand it. I could offer suggestions on a couple other Spyderco knives.

As usual, have mumbled on too long. But, before I forget, I just read a pretty big name in the custom world say that he still thinks 440C is the best salt water fillet knife steel.
 
Stick with 440C. I remember a few years back when it was THE TOP steel of choice for custom makers. I have several 440C blades, and not a one of them shows rust stains. One I've had for near a decade.

Depending on how important stain resistance is, there are lots of unconventional choices. If you are looking to spend a small fortune, Talonite, and/or Stellite (insert trademark symbols) Will NOT RUST ever! Or you could even go for Titanium blades. Not a lot of edge retention, but for a diving knife, would work great. Ceramic blades will hold an edge, will never rust, but can break with one drop on the wrong surface. Lots of options for stain resistance or stain proof.

DD
 
ATS-34 came in fashion as a steel "better" than 440C and thus has tended to replace it. In terms of advantages, Crucible rates 154CM as slightly superior to 440C in toughness (V-notch charpy test), corrosion resistance (probably salt spray) and wear resistance (unknown). The listed differences however are small, ~15 %, which would be quite difficult do see in use unless you were carefully measuring the performance.

In regards to user feedback most people tend to comment that 440C has better corrosion resistance and toughness. However this may be simply due to a difference in how the steels are heat treated. The only other comments that tend to get made are that some people don't like the quality of the edge that 440C tends to take (really high standards being used there).

In regards to actual blade performance, while on paper it looks like for most use ATS-34 should be able to give a better blade (as noted above you are talking a few percent), but this would only be the critical factor if all makers had the same skill level and strength of design. Bottom line, the maker is far more critial than the steel choice in this case.

-Cliff
 
440C has good carbon content and very high chromium which would account fo its stain resistance. I have only one knife in 440C, and that is my Benchmade 550 Griptilian. Honestly, I like this steel better than their ATS-34 or 154CM. I can have a satin/stone-washed(?) blade finish AND good stain resistance. Also it takes/holds a very good edge, and seems pretty tough as well. It's a couple points lower on the HRc scale which may account for that.

440C has become one of my fave steels.
Jim
 
The terms "better" or "best" have no real meaning in cutlery steel. All cutlery steels are a compromise designed to be strong in some areas and, consequently, weak in others. ATS-34 as normally heat treated is quite hard. The advantage is that it maintains an edge longer than 440C. Of course, it is harder to maintain than 440C, not as tough and less rust and stain resistant. It's just a matter of compromises. The current fashion in knife steel favors edge holding ability but that's pretty far down on my list of priorities. It's likely up high on someone else's. Compromises. No better or worse. Take care.
 
There's nothing remotely inferior about 440C as a blade steel. It is still used by a fair number of custom makers and that should say something about it's overall suitability.

As stated above, it may not be the latest "whizz-bang" modern steel out there, but it will get the job done.

Proper heat treatment is much more important.
 
440C is one of my favorites. In fact, my most used skinning blade is an old Loveless style drop point hunter in mirror polished 440C. I have used it off and on for 24 years now and it is unblemished, and its edge holding compares favorably with any of my ATS-34 knives. Dozier D2 is better, but it will stain quicker.
 
Lots of custom makers still use 440C. It is reputed to be a little tougher, more stain resistant than ATS-34 but a little less on edgeholding. Which usually also mean easier to sharpen. Some have said it's edgeholding is about the same as an ATS blade if cryo-teated. It therefore should be make a first rate field knife.

"Superior" these days mean long edgeholding. If you are good at sharpening knives it doesn't mean a whole lot.
 
Thanks to everybody for great replies. I have pretty much made up my mind about 440C from your replies- great steel. The reason I have started this thread is not to choose factory knife with the steel that suits me ,but to be able to request the steel I would be satisfied with when I order a custom made knife. I was not satisfied with ATS 34 and a lot of makers offer it now as a standard steel. By the way, the last time I was requesting rust ressistant properties from the knife, Jeff Diotte offered me dendritic cobalt. Any usefull info on that?
 
Fandorin,
How do you keep your knives when not in use? Any knife that is stored in its sheath is going to stain and pit with time. Sheath leather is very corrosive. Keep stored knives in one of those padded cases sprayed down inside with WD-40. This will keep a stored knife stain free for years, even non-stainless blades.

Any of the "stainless" steels that can be used for knives are only stain resistant. By the time a steel gets enough carbon to harden, it will stain, also. ATS 34, 154CM, 440C, the AUS series are all excellent steels for knife blades, and should provide an excellent using knife. The real trick is in how they've been heat treated. Part of what you get in a custom knife is "special-attention" heat treating. A lower hardness will get you an easy sharpen and low edge life. Stellite or Talonite will get you a very good working edga that'll last forever, then take forever to resharpen. It's all trade offs...

Good luck.
 
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