When will tactical customs move on past linerlocks?

T

thaddeus

Joined
Oct 2, 1998
Messages
212
What do you all think? Do you think we will see custom makers move past the liner lock, or is it just too simple to make to start making something new? I know it is not EASY to make a good liner lock, but it seems to me that some of the other locks would not be as simple to make, because of the complexities of them compared to the relatively simple liner lock.
For instance, I love the Kasper Fighting Folder, the Carsons, and I am sure the Lightfoots are good, and they all lock up tight, but it only takes one weak link to ruin the chain. I would hate to have one of those supremely sharp blades guillotine shut on my fingers, and liner locks are so smooth that, if they do fail, nothing is going to slow down that closing blade.
I would be much more ecstatic over a KFF or any other overbuilt tactical if it had a real bomb-proof lock that I could go into a snot-flying, bung-puckering, murphy-filled situation and KNOW that the lock is not going to slip open. For instance, Lord forbid I get into another knife fight, but if/when it happens, I could go in with an Axis lock (Benchmade) or a Rolling lock (REKAT) with absolute confidence that nothing my hand does will cause the lock to slip, and that it won't fail due to some micrometer-scale wear etc. I could not go into that situation with any liner lock without that slight hesitation in the back of my mind that there could be that one chance that the lock could slip at the wrong time....and as Dr. Welch says, you can't sew back on a severed finger and have it work again, you now have a crippled hand (or at least four crippled fingers, if any at all).

So, if they are going to make these outstanding knives-built-like-tanks, than why not put a bombproof lock on it? Everyone is moving forward with locks, and there are even more coming out like the Rock Lock by EDI. How about taking those awesome fighting folders and put a lock on it as tough as the knife? After all, many of them claim they are made for fighting, and most of us probably know that if something is going to go wrong, that is the time it is going to happen.

Any comments?


(Thanks to Spark, Mike and Les for this custom forum),
thaddeus
 
I like to see tactical custom makers get past linerlocks as well. Aside from the newer (and much-hyped) innovations such as the Axis lock and the Rolling lock, I would like to see custom makers go back to overbuilt lockbacks with the release located at the end of the knife (such as the venerable Buck 110). I mean, what was it about the lock that made most people stop using it? Finally, I had proposed a reversed lockback once. I remember someone mention that just about every knife innovation out there, somebody else has already thought of. The proof lies in the latest issue of Tactical Knives. Argh, where IS that darn thing? Well, anyways, it was the T-lock from Entrek Inc. Not exactly a pretty specimen, but I would like custom makers look into that sort of lock as well.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 07 December 1998).]
 
Yeah, that T-lock was not bad, and darn easy to make, I imagine. One thing I really like aobut the T-lock is that if you were using it in a Saber grip with the thumb on the back, that your thumb would actually be holding the lock in place! Very simple design and effective.

As far as the Axis, I have seen it, and I have to say I like it the best so far. It is just about bombproof. Linerlocks were cool bacause they are smoother opening than lockbacks. Lockbacks are cool because they are less fussy than the liner lock. The Axis is the best of both, and very simple! It is smooth to open, yet has a good grab to hold the blade into the handle. It is not fussy at all, and I don't see any wear or gunk making it fail (pocket lint buildup can make a liner lock or lockback fail). The Axis lock is way cool and solves all the problems so far. It holds the blade shut, yet is smooth once you get it opening, it is not fussy and should never fail for any reason that I can think of, and it is very strong!
Anyway, back to customs, all these locks started off on a custom knife somewhere, so I am confident that our fine craftsmen could come up with something sturdier than the liner lock (like that simple T-lock!). I might not even balk at a liner lock safety like on the Centofante. I would just practice until my muscle memory engaded it automatically. Although, there must be better designs, we have already seen some of them!
I have always wondered why more people don't do locks like on an automatic, but without the spring. Think of a Benchmade automatic, just for referrence. It has an extremely strong pushbutton lock. It is very simple, just a bar across the back of the tang with a pushbutton release. How hard would it be to put this mechanism on a KFF for instance?


thaddeus
 
Im a knifeuse aswell as a knifemaker. I think that if the knife closes while you are using it then you are using it wrong or using the wrong tool. I have been using sliplocks all my life without any of them closing on my fingers. The only time i have heard of a knife closing among the people i know, was a guy who was doing the"knife between your fingers" The game were you try not to hit youre fingers but the table between youre fingers. He was using a Al Mar linerlock and it closed down on his fingers and cut him.

------------------
Jens Ansø

 
Thaddeus.

A folder with a "bomb proof" lock is called a fixed blade!

First, no you probably wont see a new lock type sweep the nation. Why, because so many people day in and day out do not cut their fingers with a folder that has a liner lock. I would hazard to guess that on a daily basis I handle more customs knives than anyone on this forum. I can tell you as a dealer for the last 12 years, that the only time I have cut myself is when I was either not giving the blade the respect that it deserved or I was doing something that was inherently dangerous (such as manipulating a live blade in my hand).

Second, because the way most tactical folding knives are made today, it is more cost effiecient to use a liner lock.

Third, with the millions of knives currently in use that have liner locks, I think it is sufficeint to say the knives have proved their merit.

Does this mean that none will fail...NO! Anytime moving parts are involved there is always a chance for Mr. Murphy (always uninvited) to show up and ruin your day.

That is why I advise you to carry a fixed blade, I guarantee it will not close on your hand. 99.9% of all liner lock knife owners are happy with the reliability of their knives. There is and always will be that small percentage of those who get hurt. Just like with, guns, arrows, skateboards, inline skates, moutain bikes, etc. Some objects in our daily life come with inherent risk.

While folders are great to carry on a daily basis, they should not be your knife of choice if you are carrying a knife for personal defense.

The main reason has been stated by Thaddeous alreay.

If your going to carry a knife on a daily basis for defense, I hope you are practicing on a daily basis with that knife. If not do your self a favor and start carrying a gun.

In most states you will do equal amounts of time in prison for unlawfully carrying a knife or gun (usually concealed). In Texas, you actually do more time for the knife!

A very good alternative is the ASP baton's. I think I would rather have someone cut me than to have someone beating on me with one of those batons. Especially, if the understand the anatomy of the body and know where to strike (joints).

I have been in one knife fight, long time ago. He had a knife, I had a two foot piece of pipe. The knife fighter lost! He suffered a broken wrist, broken collar bone, dislocated knee and Im sure his ego suffered severe brusing. The reason I tell this story is to show you that a knife does not necessarily bring the fear that you hope it would. To many guys out there do not give a blade the respect it deserves and will challange you and try and take it away. I had no fear of the individual with the knife. It never even occured to me that I would get cut. Mostly stupidity on my part was respnsible for that. However, the fact that I had a Shodan in Kendo also gave me a little confidence that I could ruin this indiviuals night.

The point to all this,is that you should consider all parameters of the situation and try to define the outcomes of the scenarios that you picture in your mind.

Lastly, during a knife fight or any fight where your life is on the line, if you dont get there first with the most, you will probably lose. When your knife is buried to the hilt in your opponets eye socket, throat, abdomen or some other soft part of the human anatomy. You'll find that even if you only had a slip joint, the blade still cant close. It is truly amazing how well the human body protects the blade from cloing when it is buried deep inside it. Must be all that muscle, tendon, etc. that keeps the blade from closing. Well now Ive done it all that talk about blood, guts and violence has made me hungry!

Thad, thanks for the nice comments and appreciate your posts. Hope this partly answers your questions.

By the way, if you put a bomb on a knife, I dont care what kind of lock it has, the knife is going to be blown all to hell! :-)

Les
 
Les,

You make sense as usual. Of course, out here, neither a fixed blade nor an ASP is legal for me to carry. That leaves folders.

Liner locks do seem to be working fine for most people. Wanna know what I think? I think that despite the overbuilt tactical-folder craze, most people don't use their knives hard enough to test the lock -- opening mail or boxes isn't going to stress the lock. And 90% of the people who *do* use their knives hard, put their folder away and pull out their kabar when the hard knife work starts.

As for the rest of us, among people who use their liner locks hard, there is a frightening amount of stories of lock failure. Talk to people who've done hard thrusting tests at their FMA school. Talk to people who have really put some pressure on the spine due to torquing or because the knife got stuck in something. Among the small group of people who really work out their folders, there's too many stories of liner lock failure. These failures are 100% of the time auto-disengagement failures, not failure of the liner itself. The liner lock is super strong if made reliable.

I realize that folding knives fold, and that lock or not I have to deal with this reality. However, I believe that there's gotta be a better lock format for people who do stress their knives more. What I'm hoping is that the Axis lock catches on, and as Benchmade moves that lock to other models, other production companies will have to hop-to to keep up. Maybe that won't happen, but at least Benchmade and REKAT and Reeves will be offering locks that are more reliable. Not perfect, but able to take a lot more before auto-unlocking.

Look forward to seeing you at the LV Classic!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com


 
Les brings up some very fine points. However, I also agree with Joe that a tactical folder has its place. For example, in my state, I can conceal carry guns (after obtaining the permit) but not fixed blades. Of course, that's not going to stop me from using fixed blades. But when I'm out there, the only kosher thing to carry are folders.

Thad:

Yeah, glad you caught the part about the T-lock mechanism actually being strengthened by your own grip. That's the beauty of it all. Again, I envision an overbuilt T-lock with maybe even a slight thumb ramp built into the locking bar to further enhance our ability to reinforce the lock with our own grip. And because this concept builds on top of the tried-and-true lockback system, I don't see why it can't be done.

'Course, this was back when I was using mostly saber grip. Thanks to this fine forum here, I've floated away from it and is now using mostly natural grip. FWIW, let's hope the Axis lock will live up to its hype and put the entire issue to rest. Still, I implore all custom makers to give the overbuilt T-lock idea a try.
 
Hi Thad and SB!

Guys there is a simple solution to this problem. Call your favorite maker and place an order. Give the maker all the dimensions and style and have them create a knife just for you. Your "ultimate" knife. This is why they call them CUSTOM knives!

Legal and less than legal carries are a very personal choice. However, once you make the choice learn how to use the weapon and understand the fundamental's of weapon retention! What could be worse than being hurt with your own weapon.

Les
 
Lets see, never had a liner lock fail... Even when putting a Benchmade 970 through a steel bathroom stall door at the Ozone on FT Huachuca.
smile.gif


Seriously, if someone only carries a "tactical" folder for defense, then they aren't serious about defending themselves. A blade is part of a system that hopefully includes a firearm, some martial arts traning, and the most important in IMHO, physical conditioning.

At best the folder will serve its purpose if you get rushed and are forced to grapple with your assailant/s.

I agree with Les, when carrying as the only physical object, carry a fixed blade. There are many quality designs around, to fit any budget. Just make sure you have a good carry system. See RJ Martin's Kouzuka series http://www.martinsite.com/ .
smile.gif
Cheaper but still excellant is the Sharktooth backup from T Rhinaldi http://www.pe.net/~thrblade/ .
 
Thaddeus
Call Pat Crawford he is the only Custom Maker licensed to make a "Rolling Lock" Pat and REKAT have been working together and a Crawford fighter is in the works to be introduced at the 1999 SHOT Show. Pat can also make that Kasper Fighter for you in a "rolling Lock"

Bob Taylor
 
Hot damn! That's the best news I have heard all year! I am gonna place an order for a KFF with the Rolling Lock right away. Unfortunatly, I will have to sell a Mad Dog to pay for it.

Les,

We have already discussed the benefits of having a fixed blade in an altercation in ad nauseum on other forums (especially the Mad Dog forum). We all certainly agree that a fixed blade reigns supreme. Problem is, it is a felony to carry one here in Cali, and I have to live here another year or so. A felony is very serious to me. Convicted of a felony, you lose all your rights. No more buying guns, or having them near me even. Get caught carrying a fixed blade three times, and you are going to prison for life here in the State of "three strikes you're out". Not only that, but I would orobably get kickied out of my school and lose all my hard work for many years. That would not be very "tactical" at all.
wink.gif
Having an ASP baton, concealed or not, is also a felony. They seem to take it all pretty seriously. When I go out to the local cheap grotto for a good homemade burrito, I usually pack something heavier than a folder and risk the repercussions of the law, but most of the time, around school and work and such, all I have is a folder, but the good thing is,I have it on my person all the time, 24/7. I do not consider it a primary weapon, but if I needed it, I certainly would not leave it in my pocket for want of something better. Not only that, but the custom makers that I am referring to, with their overbuilt folders, market them as defensive folders, so it is not too much to ask for them to live up to that to the best of their ability and put a lock on there that I can know %100 that it will not fail do to a little wear, a little dirt in the mechanism, or a slightly poor execution like the picky liner lock.
My nightmare is to need the folder for something serious, and find out THEN that the lock has a problem. If I discover the faulty lock in one of my regular checkups, then I am ready for it, but if I discover the faulty lock during a stressful situation, I could lose my fingers before I realize what is happening.

On that note, it sounds like Bob Taylor and Pat Crawford have answered my wishe. I am going to go track down Pat Crawford's email and order a KFF with the Rolling Lock. Anyone have his phone number handy? Yeehaw!

Thanks to this forum and my whining, or I never would have heard of this Godsend of a folder.


sincerely and humbly,
thaddeus
 
thaddeus,

Pat Crawford: (870)735-4632
e-mail: crawfordknives@juno.com

I wonder if he can retrofit a liner lock KFF to a rolling lock.

Axel
 
That is astoundingly good news. I like Crawford's stuff, but was never thrilled with his liner locks. A rolling lock in a KFF or even a tigershark, that's practically a wet dream.

Bob, is the release mechanism on Pat's stuff going to be forward-facing, like the Pioneer series, or will the release lever be on the side? I have no problem with the forward-facing release, but a side-release might be a touch more convenient.

Hopefully other custom makers will wise up and abandon my dread nemesis, the liner lock.

JOe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH Rolling Lock

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Crawford

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Kasper

------------------
Marion David Poff fka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

Patiently waiting for the Spyderco SpydeRench, Lum Chinese Chopper Folder, Rolling Lock, Benchmade M2 Axis, M2 Axis AFCK, M2 Pinnacle and the REKAT Escalator and Pat Crawford Design.

"The victorious Warrior wins first and then goes to war, while the defeated Warrior goes to war and then seeks to win" Sun-Tzu














 
Joe,

I haven't seen a side-facing Rolling Lock. Are they ambidextrous like the Axis lock or right or left handed like the forward facing Rolling Locks?

thaddeus,

Have you been able to contact Pat Crawford yet?

Axel
 
Axel,

I don't know anybody who has seen a side-releasing rolling lock. In fact, I don't even know if it really exists. I've just heard pernicious rumors and whispers that such a beast is in the works.

I'm praying like hell they're really doing it!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
I emailed the Crawfords that very hour that I heard the news and told them that "I must have one, how much will it be? and how long is the wait?".
They have not gotten back to me yet.

If it is not too spendy, I will also pay to have it dressed up too look pretty, so as to deny suspicion of it being a weapon. I want it to look as girly as possible like a show knife with lots of pretty frills and a nice bright color on the scales, light pearly white or sapphire blue, as long as it is within a reasonable price.
I will try to call them when I get back in town. For now I hope they answer my email...I must have this knife.

thaddeus
 
I received an e-mail response from Pat Crawford about the Rolling Lock. He confirmed that he does have a license to make the Rolling Lock but that he has not made one yet. It will be some time after the first of the year before he makes one with the new knife design. It will be 6 months before he puts one on his other knife designs.

I told him to put me down for a Rolling Lock KFF. "Oh the waiting is the hardest part."

Axel
 
Per Les' early discussion, I've taken the ASP courses and would _much_ rather carry it than a folding knife, however as Ken and Thaddeus said, the ASP baton is a felony in the state of California and it is actually _less_ illegal (misdemeaner) to cary a gun illegally, go figure. Your escalation path in California is pepper spray, folding knife, or nothing.

Argh.


--Doug
 
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