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Which is stronger? Just wondering which would fail first? Thanks in advance.
Which is stronger: REKAT roller lock vs. liner locks vs. Axis lock?
- Thread starter Broken Arrow
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FrankRage did a great post on a destructive test he perfomed on several different knives.
Axis, pinnacle, rekat and syderco were included. Liner and frame locks were not. I belive it was in the general discussion a few days ago.
Axis, pinnacle, rekat and syderco were included. Liner and frame locks were not. I belive it was in the general discussion a few days ago.
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Um, the Pinnacle is a frame lock.
As for strength, the Axis and frame locks are the strongest (pretty much tied, since it depends on who made is, although if both are made as best they can be, the frame lock will be slightly stronger). However, I prefer the Axis lock above all others (not that I don't buy other knives, just that, when comparing locks, knives with the Axis get a few extra 'points') because it is fully ambidextrous.
REKAT's 'Rolling Lock' (which is not the same as the Axis lock, not matter what Knifeoutlet says) is not quite as strong as either of the above locks, so it comes in third. It's certainly no slouch, and the only reason I don't own any REKAT knives is I just don't happen to like their designs, nothing against the lock.
As has been pointed out, anything which will survive reasonable use (even if what you consider reasonable is considered abuse by the manufacturer) is 'good enough,' so worring about which happens to be slightly stronger than the others is not helpful. If you happen to like a knife with poor lockup, just make sure to keep that in mind when you use the knife. There are many parts of a folder other than the lock, so go with the whole knife, not just the lock.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
As for strength, the Axis and frame locks are the strongest (pretty much tied, since it depends on who made is, although if both are made as best they can be, the frame lock will be slightly stronger). However, I prefer the Axis lock above all others (not that I don't buy other knives, just that, when comparing locks, knives with the Axis get a few extra 'points') because it is fully ambidextrous.
REKAT's 'Rolling Lock' (which is not the same as the Axis lock, not matter what Knifeoutlet says) is not quite as strong as either of the above locks, so it comes in third. It's certainly no slouch, and the only reason I don't own any REKAT knives is I just don't happen to like their designs, nothing against the lock.
As has been pointed out, anything which will survive reasonable use (even if what you consider reasonable is considered abuse by the manufacturer) is 'good enough,' so worring about which happens to be slightly stronger than the others is not helpful. If you happen to like a knife with poor lockup, just make sure to keep that in mind when you use the knife. There are many parts of a folder other than the lock, so go with the whole knife, not just the lock.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
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Other than just showing the design to an engineer, who will tell you that the shear forces set up in the Axis design are more effectively resisted than in REKAT's lock, you can look here: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum54/HTML/000126.html
for a real-world test. If someone wants to sacrifice some knives, I would be happy to set up a similar test under more controlled conditions, but I can't afford that kind of expense, myself, at the moment.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
for a real-world test. If someone wants to sacrifice some knives, I would be happy to set up a similar test under more controlled conditions, but I can't afford that kind of expense, myself, at the moment.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
Thanks for the URL. I have read through it and all the links. I 'd say the result was inconclusive. There was some other test that had conflicting outcome.
I'd rather be interested to see more tests, maybe by Cliff, or at least a test with witnesses and pictures like Mike used to perform.
Sorry that I'm not easily convinced.
Dew.
I'd rather be interested to see more tests, maybe by Cliff, or at least a test with witnesses and pictures like Mike used to perform.
Sorry that I'm not easily convinced.
Dew.
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Where does the Sog Arc lock fit into the mix?
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Dennis Bible
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Dennis Bible
First off, I don't have any experience with the rolling lock, but I do with many liners and axis locks. I've read from a magazine that they tested the rolling lock and axis and found the rolling lock to be stronger. However, the axis that was tested didn't have a heat treated pivot. (the first part that cracked, production version has one) Both proved to be very strong.
However, since I own a axis, I am a bit biased towards it. Compared to a liner lock, its much stronger in terms of lock strength. To me, the comparision of the liner to the axis is much like shooting a squirrel with a .22 or with a shotgun. Both will do the job, but the shotgun is overkill. The majority of people won't come close to pushing the liner to the point of failure. So when it comes to the lock, it won't matter to much which is stronger.
However, since I own a axis, I am a bit biased towards it. Compared to a liner lock, its much stronger in terms of lock strength. To me, the comparision of the liner to the axis is much like shooting a squirrel with a .22 or with a shotgun. Both will do the job, but the shotgun is overkill. The majority of people won't come close to pushing the liner to the point of failure. So when it comes to the lock, it won't matter to much which is stronger.
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Yeah, let's have some more tests by Postage Man. Give me a break. If you trust the tests he does, I have some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you...
Dennis, Sog's Arc lock would be somewhere below the Rolling Lock as far as initial strength, but once it failed a little (pivot pin of the lock bar shears), it would jump up and be somewhere between the Rolling Lock and the Axis (the bar is now supported directly on the liners, like the Axis, but has already undergone some damage, so is not quite as strong).
Also, I should point out that in impact, not simple force loading, a properly-made integral lock really jumps up in strength, as the lock bar acts as a spring and absorbs some of the shock.
And, as I said above (and David re-iterated), all quality locks are pretty much overkill, so don't let the lock itself dictate your purchasing alone (although the fully-ambidextrous-ness of the Axis is a big plus, separate from strength).
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
Dennis, Sog's Arc lock would be somewhere below the Rolling Lock as far as initial strength, but once it failed a little (pivot pin of the lock bar shears), it would jump up and be somewhere between the Rolling Lock and the Axis (the bar is now supported directly on the liners, like the Axis, but has already undergone some damage, so is not quite as strong).
Also, I should point out that in impact, not simple force loading, a properly-made integral lock really jumps up in strength, as the lock bar acts as a spring and absorbs some of the shock.
And, as I said above (and David re-iterated), all quality locks are pretty much overkill, so don't let the lock itself dictate your purchasing alone (although the fully-ambidextrous-ness of the Axis is a big plus, separate from strength).
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
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Cliff Stamp. Sorry for the obscure referrence; I just have serious issues with Cliff. In a nutshell, he claims that his real-world testing is actually science (which it is not), and that, as such, it should be valued more than the real-world testing performed by others. Somewhere toward the end of the 'Talonite' thread me and Cliff have a nice 'discussion,' until I decide that he will just keep twisting my words as long as I keep giving him words to twist, so I stopped posting there.
--JB
P.S., at least I didn't use his other nickname. You'd have to go to Whine and Cheese to see that one.
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
--JB
P.S., at least I didn't use his other nickname. You'd have to go to Whine and Cheese to see that one.
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
I didn't say that Cliff's tests were better than others', though I personally enjoy reading his results. He has his data and dares to say what he believes in; very often that made him get in the way of others' business. The readers should have their own judgements.
More tests = better conclusion. I 'm not much interested in people who only like to be critics without contributing new results of their own, except only some dry theoretical statements or sarcastic remarks.
Yes I read that long thread and saw Cliff was defending his test while the pro-talonite people, many of whom I used to respect, jumped on him like a crime suspect. I found that rather disturbing. Even though I myself like talonite, I agree with Steve Harvey that it has its tradeoffs like everything else. I have lost my interest in purchasing another talonite knife not because of Cliff's statements or results, but the unprofessional way they treated him.
Dew.
[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 08-28-2000).]
More tests = better conclusion. I 'm not much interested in people who only like to be critics without contributing new results of their own, except only some dry theoretical statements or sarcastic remarks.
Yes I read that long thread and saw Cliff was defending his test while the pro-talonite people, many of whom I used to respect, jumped on him like a crime suspect. I found that rather disturbing. Even though I myself like talonite, I agree with Steve Harvey that it has its tradeoffs like everything else. I have lost my interest in purchasing another talonite knife not because of Cliff's statements or results, but the unprofessional way they treated him.
Dew.
[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 08-28-2000).]
not2sharp
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In Cliff defense I would say that his test are about as scientific as the test reported in the URL you have provided, and either is far better then what usually gets reported in the industry rags. For better or worse the knife industry lacks a reporting standard. Everyone gets to make whatever claims they want, and it is up to the buyer to exercise caution.
If you need so strong a lock, you need a fixed blade knife.
If you need so strong a lock, you need a fixed blade knife.
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Ahh..., but Frank never claimed his tests were moe valid than others'. People 'jump on him like a crime suspect' because he is dishonest about his qualifications and seeks to undermine those who are qualified to assess the quality of a knife.
How the various locks behave is not 'dry theory,' since most of these locks are used elsewhere in industry, so their properties are known. Also, if you look at that link I posted, you'll see that the theory holds out with the test. Cliff would just do the same test, but dress it up with gibberish which only scientists and engineers will recognise as false posturing, but the test itself would be no different, so I'll take the honestly-performed test anyday over the one which pretends to be something it is not.
And, as I keep saying, a folder is a folder. It will always be weaker than a fixed blade. The lock is but one part of it, and you should always look at the whole knife, not just the lock.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
How the various locks behave is not 'dry theory,' since most of these locks are used elsewhere in industry, so their properties are known. Also, if you look at that link I posted, you'll see that the theory holds out with the test. Cliff would just do the same test, but dress it up with gibberish which only scientists and engineers will recognise as false posturing, but the test itself would be no different, so I'll take the honestly-performed test anyday over the one which pretends to be something it is not.
And, as I keep saying, a folder is a folder. It will always be weaker than a fixed blade. The lock is but one part of it, and you should always look at the whole knife, not just the lock.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
"Only scientists and engineers will recognise ..." So Cliff is not a scientist and I am not an engineer huh?
I see it rather insulting to others to discriminate scientists and engineers as having better visual than other professions, the same way as the statement that we in academics cannot use or evaluate a knife like "tough guys" running around the jungle.
It's interesting to note that while you are saying this, others are accusing Cliff of being "too scientific." Some big-shot makers even went far with appalling personal attacks that if I were the one who wrote things like that the thread would be closed within seconds. I begin to think that everything is just marketing after all.
Anyway, don't want to drift too far from the topic so I will stop now.
Bye,
Dew.
[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 08-28-2000).]
I see it rather insulting to others to discriminate scientists and engineers as having better visual than other professions, the same way as the statement that we in academics cannot use or evaluate a knife like "tough guys" running around the jungle.
It's interesting to note that while you are saying this, others are accusing Cliff of being "too scientific." Some big-shot makers even went far with appalling personal attacks that if I were the one who wrote things like that the thread would be closed within seconds. I begin to think that everything is just marketing after all.
Anyway, don't want to drift too far from the topic so I will stop now.
Bye,
Dew.
[This message has been edited by Dew (edited 08-28-2000).]
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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The Rolling and Axis locks are so close in terms of strength it's just quibbling picking between them on that basis.
I *love* REKAT's designs, especially the Carny and Sifu. If I was limited to 4" by law, I'd carry the Carny, but in Calif it's a Sifu zone
. If those aren't your personal style, cool, BM is there for you in less "gonzo" fashion
.
Jim
I *love* REKAT's designs, especially the Carny and Sifu. If I was limited to 4" by law, I'd carry the Carny, but in Calif it's a Sifu zone
Jim
not2sharp
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The locks have never been a major issue for me. I still use an old stockman as my daily carry, although there are several good tactical folding knives in my collection. My knives are primarily basic and useful tool rather than weapons, and a lock while helpful is not required when folders are used as tools.
It would be as dangerous to rely on a folders locking mechanisim as it is to rely on a gun's safety. Safety results from safe techniques, not mechanisms, and the back of a folders blade should never be stressed. While a good safe lock + safe techniques is a plus, consider it an added margin of safety in case you make a mistake.
That aside, I recently added a REKAT Hobbit to my collection. The strangely shaped blade barrows heavily from Al Mar's Warrior, and the thumb stud and locking latch (I have the early lever version) feel somewhat ackward to use. Yet this knife has a rare feature which should be incorporated in all tactical folders.
The tang extends through the first inch of the bottom of the blade. This leaves the functional portion of the blade intact, and adds an excellent safety device. Should the lock fail, and the knife fold upon your hand, the first contact would be the unsharpened tang with your first finger. This feature should be adopted on more tactical knives.
It would be as dangerous to rely on a folders locking mechanisim as it is to rely on a gun's safety. Safety results from safe techniques, not mechanisms, and the back of a folders blade should never be stressed. While a good safe lock + safe techniques is a plus, consider it an added margin of safety in case you make a mistake.
That aside, I recently added a REKAT Hobbit to my collection. The strangely shaped blade barrows heavily from Al Mar's Warrior, and the thumb stud and locking latch (I have the early lever version) feel somewhat ackward to use. Yet this knife has a rare feature which should be incorporated in all tactical folders.
The tang extends through the first inch of the bottom of the blade. This leaves the functional portion of the blade intact, and adds an excellent safety device. Should the lock fail, and the knife fold upon your hand, the first contact would be the unsharpened tang with your first finger. This feature should be adopted on more tactical knives.
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