WWII Sword given as gift, need German translation

k_estela

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A few years back, a family friend gave my family a German WWII sword as a gift. Apparently, her late husband, a U.S. soldier, had taken it from an officer and brought it home. I recently brought it to a local gun store and was able to make some progres with the sword's identification. I would like to learn more about this piece and was hoping someone here could help with the translation. On one side of the blade it it etched in German "Die Drei allen der 4. Schwadron. O. Gefr. Hettinger O. Gefr Gurzenich O. Gefr Krug EinKluger Reiter Weir, genau, erst kommi das Pferol und olan die frau." On the other side of the blade, it is etched, "Bei Pferden unol bei frauen soll man ouf Rasse Schauen. Philipp Krug 4. Kav. Regt. 15 Paderborn"

I can take some digital pictures and send them to you if you would like to see this piece. I was told it was not an issued sword but one that was most likely purchased, engraved and given as a gift from an officer's men.

Let me know what you think or if you can help. Kevinestela@hotmail.com
 
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"the three all of the 4. Schwadron. O. Gefr. Hettinger O. Gefr Gurzenich O. Gefr jug of a-intelligent riders Weir, exactly, only kommi the Pferol and olan the woman."

Other side:
" with horses unol with women is one ouf race schauen. Philipp jug 4. Kav. Moves. 15 Paderborn "


http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate

Didn't translate very well I'm afraid :(
 

Esav Benyamin

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I guess the writing is Fraktur, which isn't easy to read.

Probable corrections

"Die Drei allen der 4. Schwadron. O. Gefr. Hettinger O. Gefr Gurzenich O. Gefr Krug EinKluger Reiter Weir, genau, erst kommt das Pferd und dann die Frau."

"Bei Pferden und bei Frauen soll man auf Rasse Schauen. Philipp Krug 4. Kav. Regt. 15 Paderborn"
 
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"O. Gefr." would be the abbreviation for "Obergefreiter". This would be equivalent to a corporal in the U.S. Army.

The unit is 4 Kavallarie-Regiment 15 Paderborn.
 
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Is there a chance that this is, in fact, a WW I or earlier German sword "liberated" during WW II?

Isolated facts:

There was a cavalry riding school at Paderborn in the 1920's

Cavalry Regt. 15 was stationed at Paderborn in 1934.
 
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It could be from the First World War or earlier. Cavalry regiments were also used extensively on the Eastern Front until 1945. They could handle the rugged terrain better than vehicles and one of their roles was to patrol the lines of communication. A photo would help to determine the sword's age.

The statement about the bloodline of horses and women sounds like the sword might have been given as a wedding present?
 
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esav is right. on each side there is a proverb, each proverb with two rhyming verses:

"Ein kluger Reiter weiss genau,
erst kommt das Pferd und dann die Frau."

(a clever horseman knows very well,
first the horse and then the woman.)

"Bei Pferden und bei Frauen
soll man auf Rasse schauen."

(with horses and women
one should pay attention to the see below)

to understand the second proverb you must know that "rasse" in german means different things: "race" for human beings, "breed" (?) for animals but the word "rasse" is also used to describe a hot-blooded, vivacious girl ("das mädchen hat rasse": "that's a hot-blooded girl"). "rasse" in this proverb therefore means "breed" for the horse and "hot-blooded" for the woman (but as often in literature it is a question of interpretation: maybe the horse should be hot-blooded and the woman a member of the right family. or both. however...).

the bold part makes no sense:"Die Drei allen der 4. Schwadron. O. Gefr. Hettinger..."

a picture would help to translate!

brightred

ps: sorry for my english...
 

Esav Benyamin

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Your English is great. It's way better than my German! I do alphabets better than translations. :)
 
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"Die Drei allen der 4. Schwadron. O. Gefr. Hettinger O. Gefr Gurzenich O. Gefr Krug. Ein kluger Reiter weiß genau, erst kommt das Pferd und dann die Frau."

"Bei Pferden und bei Frauen soll man auf Rasse schauen. Philipp Krug 4. Kav. Regt. 15 Paderborn"

Nash The Slash said:
"O. Gefr." would be the abbreviation for "Obergefreiter".

That's correct.

Nash The Slash said:
This would be equivalent to a corporal in the U.S. Army.

Actually, an Obergefreiter is the equivalent of a Private 1st Class in the US Army while a Corporal would be a Hauptgefreiter.

brightred said:
to understand the second proverb you must know that "rasse" in german means different things: "race" for human beings, "breed" (?) for animals but the word "rasse" is also used to describe a hot-blooded, vivacious girl ("das mädchen hat rasse": "that's a hot-blooded girl"). "rasse" in this proverb therefore means "breed" for the horse and "hot-blooded" for the woman (but as often in literature it is a question of interpretation: maybe the horse should be hot-blooded and the woman a member of the right family. or both. however...).

I'd second your assessment if its an pre-WWII piece...if it was made during the nazi regime, it could be a racist reference.

brightred said:
the bold part makes no sense:"Die Drei allen der 4. Schwadron. O. Gefr. Hettinger..."

True, in modern German it doesn't make sense. But I would wager the guess that it's just an outdated way of saying "Die Drei, alle von der 4. Schwadron..." ("The three, all of them members of the 4th squadron...")
 

Esav Benyamin

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Quiet Storm said:
I'd second your assessment if its an pre-WWII piece...if it was made during the nazi regime, it could be a racist reference.
I was wondering about that. It could have been a legitimate proverb anyway, but exactly the kind of proverb that a nazi-era soldier would fix on.
 

k_estela

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YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!! If anyone wants to see this sword, send me an email and I'll send you some pictures. Just let me know what you want to see and I'll do my best. THANKS AGAIN GUYS!!! Now my curiosity is really peaking!

kevinestela@hotmail.com

kevin e
 
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Reiter-Regiment 15
Kavallerie-Regiment 15

Aufgestellt am 1. Januar 1921 als 15. (Preußisches) Reiter-Regiment in Paderborn, Teile in Neuhaus und der 3. Kavallerie-Division unterstellt. Am 6. Oktober 1936 in Kavallerie-Regiment 15 umbenannt und dem VI. Armeekorps unterstellt. Bei der Mobilmachung wurde das Regiment aufgelöst und bildete die Aufklärungs-Abteilungen 6, 16 und 26 sowie Teile der Aufklärungs-Abteilungen 169 und 186.

Kommandeure (Stichtag):

1923 Oberst von Bloedau

1929 Oberstleutnant Freiherr von Dalwigk zu Lichtenfeld

1931 Oberst Freiherr von Dalwigk zu Lichtenfeld

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Kavallerieregimenter/KavR15.htm

(I don't speak German, and the automatic translation was extremely clunky).

maximus otter
 

loki88

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Probably genuine, taken from an carreer officer who was in the Preußisches horse regiment pre-war, then carried the sword into WWII when they became equiped with tanks. Probably not a rascist inscription, just that like horses u needed a good bloodline. Because these where old fashioned carreer officers it was important to marry a girl that had similar social standards as them. Not regarded as Ariën-non Ariën. More like "West Point officers" marrying daughters of other officers to keep their social standard.Sword was carried into invasion of Belgium, France, but then they where transfered to fight in operation Barbarossa (invasion in Russia), they seem to had a VERY tough fight in Russia beeing in a salient for two years. They kept fighting off the Russians untill they where evacuated to US controled territory. They surrendered at Schleswig-Holstein on 2 May 1945.

This sword has been thru the whole spectrum of HEAVY battle in Europe/Eurasia.
 
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Wow- got to this thread late. Thanks Esav for pointing this one out. Looks like all questions are answered (& MUCH better than I would have been able to!).
Excellent thread- interesting piece.
 

Esav Benyamin

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Let's see what I can do. -- No good. Picture too large. :confused:

One picture did show the script, which was a slightly ornate modern font, not the Fraktur I'd thought it might be.

The blade was long and slim, with a minimal curve.
 
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