- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Could someone provide a quick tutorial on the methods used to attach 'hawk and hatchet heads to their handles, and the respective advantages/disadvantages of the most common methods? Thanks!
Attaching head to handle
- Thread starter Joe Talmadge
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 16, 1999
- Messages
- 1,094
I have broken many a handle from throwing, and on most hawks, I can just drop a new handle through the top, and tap it a little and it will stay on pretty good. the advangage to this is, the speed of replacing the handles, and that you can (if you have to) just start making up your own handles.
As for my vietnam reproduction, I took an ordnary 14 inch hammer handle, sanded it down with the belt sander, sawed a groove in there, and popped in a couple of handle wedges. It stays on well, but it will take longer to replace the handle.
As for my vietnam reproduction, I took an ordnary 14 inch hammer handle, sanded it down with the belt sander, sawed a groove in there, and popped in a couple of handle wedges. It stays on well, but it will take longer to replace the handle.
As pointed out above, a major advantage of the traditional tapered eye handle fit is the ease of making and rough-fitting a replacement if you break the miserable thing in the field. No slots, no wedges, and you can whittle a new one from a spruce limb. Wonder why the mountain men and Indians used them built that way????
To make it work a LOT better, precision-fit the handle (and try not to break it).
Prepare the eye by smoothing it to a very regular uniform taper (not that hard when working from castings, but it can be a real b*tch with forged heads because they tend to be very irregular). I clean up the eyes on my production hawks with half-round files and 120 and 220 grit abrasives so I can get a precise fit.
Next, the handle goes in and out a LOT of times. This is just like bedding a rifle receiver to a stock, and you file and sandpaper off the high spots each time until you have a perfect full-bearing fit. It takes me about an hour on the average.
Finally, when everything fits perfectly and both head and handle are completely finished, SWAB THE INSIDE OF THE EYE WITH A LOT OF LINSEED OIL and install the precision-fitted handle (preferably with an arbor press). The linseed oil lubricates it going in, keeps the handle from getting thirsty in the eye area, and when it dries it is a lot like Epoxy. The handle DOES NOT come out unless you get very violent with it.
Hope this answers your question. Yes, you CAN do a quick-fit in the woods and the hawk will still chop. Yes, it works a LOT nicer when the handle is precision-fitted. And, YES, a traditional hawk handle works very well without any wedges or a nearby hardware store.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
To make it work a LOT better, precision-fit the handle (and try not to break it).
Prepare the eye by smoothing it to a very regular uniform taper (not that hard when working from castings, but it can be a real b*tch with forged heads because they tend to be very irregular). I clean up the eyes on my production hawks with half-round files and 120 and 220 grit abrasives so I can get a precise fit.
Next, the handle goes in and out a LOT of times. This is just like bedding a rifle receiver to a stock, and you file and sandpaper off the high spots each time until you have a perfect full-bearing fit. It takes me about an hour on the average.
Finally, when everything fits perfectly and both head and handle are completely finished, SWAB THE INSIDE OF THE EYE WITH A LOT OF LINSEED OIL and install the precision-fitted handle (preferably with an arbor press). The linseed oil lubricates it going in, keeps the handle from getting thirsty in the eye area, and when it dries it is a lot like Epoxy. The handle DOES NOT come out unless you get very violent with it.
Hope this answers your question. Yes, you CAN do a quick-fit in the woods and the hawk will still chop. Yes, it works a LOT nicer when the handle is precision-fitted. And, YES, a traditional hawk handle works very well without any wedges or a nearby hardware store.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
DOC -
An arbor press is an old-time mechanical press used for pressing bearings etc. and very useful for hawk handles. With a brass die that goes around the handle and fits the bottom of the head (which sets on the base) it permits squashing a handle in without messing up the head. And with the arbor press you can "feel" the handle going in which is not possible with a hydraulic press like the big manufacturers use.
I have a specially-built hydraulic handle-REMOVAL press (don't need "feel" here) but refuse to use one for inserting handles.
The whole idea is to not have to bang the assembly on an anvil or block going in and out multiple times while fitting, with less chance of "missing" and peeling off a chunk of your new handle (or dinging the head).
Hope this information helps.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
An arbor press is an old-time mechanical press used for pressing bearings etc. and very useful for hawk handles. With a brass die that goes around the handle and fits the bottom of the head (which sets on the base) it permits squashing a handle in without messing up the head. And with the arbor press you can "feel" the handle going in which is not possible with a hydraulic press like the big manufacturers use.
I have a specially-built hydraulic handle-REMOVAL press (don't need "feel" here) but refuse to use one for inserting handles.
The whole idea is to not have to bang the assembly on an anvil or block going in and out multiple times while fitting, with less chance of "missing" and peeling off a chunk of your new handle (or dinging the head).
Hope this information helps.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Thanks for the info!
- Joined
- Jan 18, 1999
- Messages
- 345
Thanks, Two Hawks,
Now, that has me thinking.
I like the idea of PRESSING the head on rather than banging
the handle on a stump.
Can you think of anything that can be jerry rigged
to press the handle on.
I'm thinking of something involving a pipe over the handle pushing
the head up and a car jack.
Am I nuts ?
Be kind
Doc
Now, that has me thinking.
I like the idea of PRESSING the head on rather than banging
the handle on a stump.
Can you think of anything that can be jerry rigged
to press the handle on.
I'm thinking of something involving a pipe over the handle pushing
the head up and a car jack.
Am I nuts ?
Be kind
Doc
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
I actually don't understand exactly how the taper works. The taper is larger at the top of the eye, and thinner down below where the rest of the handle sticks out?
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,385
Yes, and the hawk handle is increasing flared as you get closer to the head end. Are you asking about the rate of taper and whether it is consistent?
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,842
Thanks. Just trying to understand the direction of the taper, and figure out what is meant by easy field-replaceable handles.
Joe
Joe
DOC-
There's no point trying to cobble up something to install the handles. You can get an arbor press for about 30 bucks from Enco or Harbor Freight and they're very handy to have in the shop for a lot of other things. You should make a bushing (brass, aluminum, or at least hardwood) to go under the head so you don't ding up the bottom against the steel work-support plate of the press.
For taking the handle out, I welded up a frame that has a brass bushing at the top to support the head and accepts a hydraulic jack at the bottom to push up on the handle. Or you can beat it out by hitting the handle butt against the anvil like I did before I made the removal press.
JOE-
The taper is about 1 degree and SHOULD be uniform through the eye. Forged heads usually aren't but you can correct it some with half-round files. The handle should be fitted (files and sandpaper) to EXACTLY the same taper and uniform bearing all around like bedding a gun receiver if you want one that will stay in. Same idea as the precision steel taper pins used to hold steel parts together in some machinery.
In the field, if you break a handle, you can crudely whittle a limb close enough to jam in (and maybe do a little more fine-tuning on the high spots) well enough that you'll still have a functioning tool till you can get back home.
Hope this helps.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
There's no point trying to cobble up something to install the handles. You can get an arbor press for about 30 bucks from Enco or Harbor Freight and they're very handy to have in the shop for a lot of other things. You should make a bushing (brass, aluminum, or at least hardwood) to go under the head so you don't ding up the bottom against the steel work-support plate of the press.
For taking the handle out, I welded up a frame that has a brass bushing at the top to support the head and accepts a hydraulic jack at the bottom to push up on the handle. Or you can beat it out by hitting the handle butt against the anvil like I did before I made the removal press.
JOE-
The taper is about 1 degree and SHOULD be uniform through the eye. Forged heads usually aren't but you can correct it some with half-round files. The handle should be fitted (files and sandpaper) to EXACTLY the same taper and uniform bearing all around like bedding a gun receiver if you want one that will stay in. Same idea as the precision steel taper pins used to hold steel parts together in some machinery.
In the field, if you break a handle, you can crudely whittle a limb close enough to jam in (and maybe do a little more fine-tuning on the high spots) well enough that you'll still have a functioning tool till you can get back home.
Hope this helps.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
Thanks for the tip about using linseed oil inside the eye. I will definitely have to give it a try. I'll also look into the arbor press idea, possibly for use at camp. (There's not much space for shop tools in a NYC apartment.
) Frankly, I damage more handles by banging them into place than I do by actually throwing. Now, if I were to remove the hitch ball, insert the handle up through the hole, take my bottle jack, and... Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Brian :
Drive the head onto the handle, not the handle into the head.
-Cliff
Drive the head onto the handle, not the handle into the head.
-Cliff
Cliff, I think the method I typically use in the field fits your description but I'm not sure. After making the head fit as snugly as possible by hand, I hit the top of the handle perpendicular to a hard surface, usually the flat of a log. The weight of the head & centrifugal force further snugs the handle in place. Is this basically what you had in mind or is there a better field expedient way of doing it?
Another method that I had used was to hook the lower edge of the head over the top of an upright log so that the bottom of the handle points toward the ground. While securing the head in place with one hand, I used a piece of wood to drive the handle into the head. This is the method that seemed to cause more handle damage without making the head appreciably tighter than the way I described above.
BTW, I find that rounding both the tops & bottoms of my throwing handles minimizes splintering & mushrooming damage -- whether from accidental or deliberate impacts.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
The problem with hitting the head of the handle is unless you are freakishly skilled there is little probability that you can do a controlled perpendicular impact. Any hit that is at an angle will generate a higher pressure impact and produce a shear across the surface of the handle.
You are generally better off in turning the handle upside down, resting the head on a soft flat surface and hitting the underside of the tomahawk head driving it up onto the handle. If you are outside your house just take a hammer with you.
Rounding the ends of the handles is an excellent idea to increase durability. It would also have an effect on how the tomahawk reacted to handle hits on throws, probably making them go a little wild. It would also make them more user friendly in respect to carrying.
You could fit a cap onto the end of the handle as well to increase durability. You would want it well shaped to allow a smooth throw. A small piece of mild steel might be worth looking at. There are shock epoxies that should hold it in place.
-Cliff
You are generally better off in turning the handle upside down, resting the head on a soft flat surface and hitting the underside of the tomahawk head driving it up onto the handle. If you are outside your house just take a hammer with you.
Rounding the ends of the handles is an excellent idea to increase durability. It would also have an effect on how the tomahawk reacted to handle hits on throws, probably making them go a little wild. It would also make them more user friendly in respect to carrying.
You could fit a cap onto the end of the handle as well to increase durability. You would want it well shaped to allow a smooth throw. A small piece of mild steel might be worth looking at. There are shock epoxies that should hold it in place.
-Cliff
I've considered hitting the underside of the tomahawk head as you suggest, Cliff, but hesitated for a few reasons. For one, I was afraid of the metal-on-metal damage that the hammer might do to the hawk. Also, without using a punch of some sort between hammer & underside of the eye, it would be difficult to contact that area without hitting the handle. I imagine that hitting the underside of the blade alone could cause an uneven fit at the least. Can any hawk makers offer field expedient alternatives?
Interesting discussion guys...
First off, I think there is an important aspect of the tapered eye that is not being addressed. Certainly ease of handle replacement was an issue. The same generation of people that made these tomahawks also made hoes and axes with tapered eyes - tools that would have been used within proximity of a workshop and easy to wedge. Why? Because they did not want the head to fly off - so simple that is sounds kind of stupid. But, that is an important thought if you are out and about, and you are in a situation where you don't want the head to fling off into the distance.
There is another, more important reason if you are making a pipe tomahawk. Where would you put the wedge? There is a hole in the haft that cannot be blocked, two holes actually...one from the pipe, one down the haft. The tapered eye allows for a tight fit that requires no wedging.
Head taper - most older hawks have a one to two degree taper. We currently use a 1.5 degree taper.
I take issue with the claim that the eyes of the forged heads are irregular. This might be true with some of the forged heads that Two Hawks has come across, but not on this hill. Irregularity often comes from the wrap around style of head. Many of the better pipes and hawks were either split and drifted or punched. We do a combination of the two, and our eyes are within +/- 0.005" in a given batch, and have a smooth inside surface negating the need for sanding and filing.
Two Hawks is on the money with the arbor press, and the need for a good fit before you drive the handle home. We use a arbor press in the shop, and it can't be beat. Our press cost about $40, and we bought it locally. I am working on a FAQ page dealing with tomahawk eyes and such for the site, and the page should be finished sometime this week...check it out.
Thanks Two Hawks for the handle fitting description. I wish your shop wasn't so far away!!!!!
First off, I think there is an important aspect of the tapered eye that is not being addressed. Certainly ease of handle replacement was an issue. The same generation of people that made these tomahawks also made hoes and axes with tapered eyes - tools that would have been used within proximity of a workshop and easy to wedge. Why? Because they did not want the head to fly off - so simple that is sounds kind of stupid. But, that is an important thought if you are out and about, and you are in a situation where you don't want the head to fling off into the distance.
There is another, more important reason if you are making a pipe tomahawk. Where would you put the wedge? There is a hole in the haft that cannot be blocked, two holes actually...one from the pipe, one down the haft. The tapered eye allows for a tight fit that requires no wedging.
Head taper - most older hawks have a one to two degree taper. We currently use a 1.5 degree taper.
I take issue with the claim that the eyes of the forged heads are irregular. This might be true with some of the forged heads that Two Hawks has come across, but not on this hill. Irregularity often comes from the wrap around style of head. Many of the better pipes and hawks were either split and drifted or punched. We do a combination of the two, and our eyes are within +/- 0.005" in a given batch, and have a smooth inside surface negating the need for sanding and filing.
Two Hawks is on the money with the arbor press, and the need for a good fit before you drive the handle home. We use a arbor press in the shop, and it can't be beat. Our press cost about $40, and we bought it locally. I am working on a FAQ page dealing with tomahawk eyes and such for the site, and the page should be finished sometime this week...check it out.
Thanks Two Hawks for the handle fitting description. I wish your shop wasn't so far away!!!!!
Multiple things to address so this might be longer than I like.
(1) DO NOT set the top of the handle against something and pound on the bottom of the head!!!!!!! With either a hammer or a punch, you WILL deform the bottom of the eye badly, and will NEVER get a handle to fit properly until you completely reshape the inside!!!!!! If you have a specially-made brass bushing to closely fit the handle and bottom of the eye, and a specially-made tube to pound on it with, you could avoid this problem. But then, you might as well use the arbor press with an equivalent bushing to support the bottom of the head as I do on production hawks.
(2) The traditional method is to use inertia to seat the head by banging the top of the handle on a block. As Cliff pointed out, there are problems with that method. One he didn't point out is that if you miss you've just trashed a handle. That's why I use the press. In the field, there isn't really a good alternative, but on a stump you're less likely to break off a chunk than getting "off target" and hitting the edge of the anvil.
(3) Rounding the ends (as Brian mentioned) is in my opinion an absolute NECESSITY to prevent sharp edges which WILL cause chunks of the handle to separate when they hit something (as in a poor throw). I have been thoroughly rounding handle "corners" for over 10 years.
(4) Brian's idea with the pickup bumper is not as far-fetched as it might sound, IF the hitch ball hole is big enough and IF you have a brass bushing to support the bottom of the eye ... it would be a lot like an upside-down handle press.
(5) Ryan's hot-formed punched eyes were a technique used by the best toolmakers 150 years ago. If carefully done, with very smooth forming mandrels, you'll get an eye about as clean as an investment casting which requires only a bit of filing and some abrasives to finish up very nicely. Unfortunately, most forged-head hawks use a wrapped eye and the "Rendezvous hawk" makers often don't put much care in trying to get the interior of the eye properly aligned, properly shaped, and relatively smooth. They are also frequently poorly hammer-welded where the blade reaches the eye, and they just run a TIG-weld bead up the point to try to keep it from splitting. RYAN DOESN'T DO THAT KIND OF SH*T, BY THE WAY! He is a maker of high quality hawks who takes care and pride in his work.
For good hammer welded "Rendezvous" hawks, look to H&B Forge. Their eyes are irregular enough that you'll have to spend quite a bit of time with the files to get a perfect teardrop eye, but their welds are rock-solid and they guarantee their heads. Their prices are not much higher than some pretty poor stuff you can find in the boxes or bins by the trade tables.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
(1) DO NOT set the top of the handle against something and pound on the bottom of the head!!!!!!! With either a hammer or a punch, you WILL deform the bottom of the eye badly, and will NEVER get a handle to fit properly until you completely reshape the inside!!!!!! If you have a specially-made brass bushing to closely fit the handle and bottom of the eye, and a specially-made tube to pound on it with, you could avoid this problem. But then, you might as well use the arbor press with an equivalent bushing to support the bottom of the head as I do on production hawks.
(2) The traditional method is to use inertia to seat the head by banging the top of the handle on a block. As Cliff pointed out, there are problems with that method. One he didn't point out is that if you miss you've just trashed a handle. That's why I use the press. In the field, there isn't really a good alternative, but on a stump you're less likely to break off a chunk than getting "off target" and hitting the edge of the anvil.
(3) Rounding the ends (as Brian mentioned) is in my opinion an absolute NECESSITY to prevent sharp edges which WILL cause chunks of the handle to separate when they hit something (as in a poor throw). I have been thoroughly rounding handle "corners" for over 10 years.
(4) Brian's idea with the pickup bumper is not as far-fetched as it might sound, IF the hitch ball hole is big enough and IF you have a brass bushing to support the bottom of the eye ... it would be a lot like an upside-down handle press.
(5) Ryan's hot-formed punched eyes were a technique used by the best toolmakers 150 years ago. If carefully done, with very smooth forming mandrels, you'll get an eye about as clean as an investment casting which requires only a bit of filing and some abrasives to finish up very nicely. Unfortunately, most forged-head hawks use a wrapped eye and the "Rendezvous hawk" makers often don't put much care in trying to get the interior of the eye properly aligned, properly shaped, and relatively smooth. They are also frequently poorly hammer-welded where the blade reaches the eye, and they just run a TIG-weld bead up the point to try to keep it from splitting. RYAN DOESN'T DO THAT KIND OF SH*T, BY THE WAY! He is a maker of high quality hawks who takes care and pride in his work.
For good hammer welded "Rendezvous" hawks, look to H&B Forge. Their eyes are irregular enough that you'll have to spend quite a bit of time with the files to get a perfect teardrop eye, but their welds are rock-solid and they guarantee their heads. Their prices are not much higher than some pretty poor stuff you can find in the boxes or bins by the trade tables.
TWO HAWKS
http://www.2hawks.net
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Brian :
If it could, then the same thing is very likely to happen if you miss on a throw as rocks are far harder than a hammer, or consider combat related impacts. I have done this even with very cheap tomahawks (Cold Steel, ~$20) with no problems. The hammer head is likely to deform before the tomahawk head will. The Cold Steel tomahawk for example will readily chop into the face of a hammer.
You could probably functionally damage the head with a hammer if you swing it hard enough, but that is far beyond the effort required and has no resemblance to how you would set anything. Even then though, I don't think it would be that easy to do. Tomhawk heads are tempered steel, it is not that easy to plastically deform. You have made me curious enough to find out though, I'll try it with the Cold Steel Norse tomahawk this evening. I think with that one though it is likely that the eye will break before it deforms significantly because it is a cast head.
On some it can be difficult to hit the sides, but the front and back should be ok. As well, it is not like you are in a hurry, or are taking full powered over the head swings. You are trying to set two tapers, you don't need heavy force to get a smooth fit. Once the head is on securely you gradually raise the force and repeat the process. You should do the same no matter how you are putting the head on.
Depends on how you do it. If you used full powered hits then you would skew the head on badly and likely gouge the handle. However if you just take your time and drive it on this won't be a problem. The exception to this would be a poorly made taper than has high binding points. Assuming the taper of the handle and the head match they will fit together smoothly.
Two Hawks :
[referring to me]
That is what the statement about non-perpendicular hits addresses, and contact that is not flush will cause high pressures on the face of the handle and induce a shear force and thus they can seriously indent and even split a handle.
Now if you mean that you miss the target completely and smash the handle off something else, well yes I didn't address that because quite frankly if you do that you really should not be using a tomahawk as you don't have the control to use it safely.
It is not like you raise the tomahawk over your head and slam it down violently aiming for a small target. You can set the heads without raising your hand above your shoulder and you should be using a wide, and more importantly, *even* surface.
-Cliff
If it could, then the same thing is very likely to happen if you miss on a throw as rocks are far harder than a hammer, or consider combat related impacts. I have done this even with very cheap tomahawks (Cold Steel, ~$20) with no problems. The hammer head is likely to deform before the tomahawk head will. The Cold Steel tomahawk for example will readily chop into the face of a hammer.
You could probably functionally damage the head with a hammer if you swing it hard enough, but that is far beyond the effort required and has no resemblance to how you would set anything. Even then though, I don't think it would be that easy to do. Tomhawk heads are tempered steel, it is not that easy to plastically deform. You have made me curious enough to find out though, I'll try it with the Cold Steel Norse tomahawk this evening. I think with that one though it is likely that the eye will break before it deforms significantly because it is a cast head.
On some it can be difficult to hit the sides, but the front and back should be ok. As well, it is not like you are in a hurry, or are taking full powered over the head swings. You are trying to set two tapers, you don't need heavy force to get a smooth fit. Once the head is on securely you gradually raise the force and repeat the process. You should do the same no matter how you are putting the head on.
Depends on how you do it. If you used full powered hits then you would skew the head on badly and likely gouge the handle. However if you just take your time and drive it on this won't be a problem. The exception to this would be a poorly made taper than has high binding points. Assuming the taper of the handle and the head match they will fit together smoothly.
Two Hawks :
[referring to me]
That is what the statement about non-perpendicular hits addresses, and contact that is not flush will cause high pressures on the face of the handle and induce a shear force and thus they can seriously indent and even split a handle.
Now if you mean that you miss the target completely and smash the handle off something else, well yes I didn't address that because quite frankly if you do that you really should not be using a tomahawk as you don't have the control to use it safely.
It is not like you raise the tomahawk over your head and slam it down violently aiming for a small target. You can set the heads without raising your hand above your shoulder and you should be using a wide, and more importantly, *even* surface.
-Cliff