Charcoal is inherently kinder to high carbon steels. What do I mean by that statement? Charcoal readily produces a reducing atmosphere in the forge. In fact it takes experience to get anything but a reducing atmosphere. Gas and coal are the opposite. It takes experience to hold a reducing atmosphere with these fuels. You're always working against it's natural behavior. It's hard to decarburize steel using charcoal at normal forging temperatures. You have to push a lot of air through very little charcoal or hold the steel at welding temp for longer than normal. You can also use charcoal ash as a flux to encapsulate the steel. You will not lose or gain carbon. It's easier to weld with compared to borax and the ash flux doesn't eat up the steel or the inside of your forge like borax will. I think charcoal has been ignored for the most part by modern smiths and this has caused a lack of information. Most smiths stay with the fuel they learn on. And since there are very few people teaching how to forge on charcoal it has become the forgotten fuel. The few smiths that try are frustrated by their results usually due to a poor forge design. One very talented bladesmith told me he tried using charcoal and it worked great but he burned up 50 pounds of lump per hour. My forge uses 2 pounds of charcoal lump per hour and will heat up a large bowie size chunk of steel in less than 3 minutes. Charcoal has a lot of advantages and probably more than the modern smith has yet to uncover. I have been using natural charcoal full time as a professional knifemaker for 5 years now and I'm still learning new things about it all the time. If I could convince a few dozen bladesmiths to give it a serious try then we could really cover some information ground. It wasn't the fuel of choice for thousands of years without good reason.
Charcoal is the superior fuel for bladesmithing!
- Thread starter lively
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but it's bad for your health. it's dirty, a pain in the butt to start, and produces a black smoke that makes you cough, and is bad for your lungs. i've used charcoal forges before, and i think gas forges are better becuase they run cleaner.
do you wear a respirator or have a s.c.b.a. (self contained breathing apparatus) while forging?
anyway i see your new to the forums, these forums are fantastic. usually you can ask anything about blade making and someone will have an answer for you. it's nice to see so many new members.
do you wear a respirator or have a s.c.b.a. (self contained breathing apparatus) while forging?
anyway i see your new to the forums, these forums are fantastic. usually you can ask anything about blade making and someone will have an answer for you. it's nice to see so many new members.
Hey Tim, you run out of people to argue with this about over at swordforum and decide to bring it here?
(just kidding)
Ok, I'm willing to give it a try, what's the easiest way to make good charcoal without digging a big hole in the back yard? I've got a 55 gallon drum and a big red oak tree the power company cut down, where do I go from there? I've got an open top round coal forge, but can probably rig up something along the lines of yours out of some pipe and cement (adobe is hard to come by down here in the bayou)
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I love my country! I just don't trust my government!
Ok, I'm willing to give it a try, what's the easiest way to make good charcoal without digging a big hole in the back yard? I've got a 55 gallon drum and a big red oak tree the power company cut down, where do I go from there? I've got an open top round coal forge, but can probably rig up something along the lines of yours out of some pipe and cement (adobe is hard to come by down here in the bayou)
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I love my country! I just don't trust my government!
If it's burning dirty then it's a poor forge design. Or the charcoal is of poor quality. Natural charcoal burns very clean with very little smoke. When I say Natural charcoal I'm not talking about BBQ briquettes. Briquettes have clay in them used as a bonding agent to form the briquette shape. This stuff is junk. Don't use it for bladesmithing. Most bladesmiths that I have talked to who have tried charcoal have tried it in a traditional blacksmith type forge and have poured way too much fuel it like they would with coal. Tai Goo uses a traditional blacksith type coal forge and burns charcoal but he put about 20 gallons of charcoal ash in it first for insulation. He then wets the ash to form a duck's nest into any shape he needs and it burns clean and very efficient. As far as health concerns go, any fuel used improperly will be unheathy. Coal being the worst. Gas being burned too rich will make you sick quick and give you a spitting headache that will last for days. One of the advantages of charcoal is how clean it burns. How were you using it? In what type of forge set up? If you are willing to give it another try I will send you my forge plans free of charge.
T.J.
Yea I think I converted a lot makers on the sword board and I figured it's time to get the charcoal revolution fired up over here. A lot of great talent here. There is a few web sites that sell charcoal delivered to your door. I'm using El Diablo Brand. It's oven baked mesquite. But if you want to make it yourself, a 55 gallon drum is what I use to try out different species of wood.
With a metal 55 gallon drum drill 8 holes 1 inch in diameter evenly spaced apart around the bottom of the drum about 4 inches up. Take the metal lid and flare out the lip so it fits very loosely to prevent any potentially explosive gases from building up. Cut a 4 inch diameter hole in the center of the lid. Build a wood fire in the bottom of the drum. Throw in wood chunks around 4"x 4"x 8" on top of the fire. The trick here is to add the wood slow enough to keep the fire burning and quick enough to keep it from burning up into nothing but ash. Keep this up until you fill the drum. Place the loose fitting lid on and wait until you sure you have a nice even burn. Then lay a large coffee can lid over the 4 inch hole. This will smuther the flames but will allow the smoke to burp out. Plug the holes around the bottom with some bolts or green sticks. Let the whole thing sit until cool. With practice you will end up with about 50 pounds of quality charcoal lump. Experiment with different wood species. Hardwoods burn hotter and longer. But softwoods produce less sparks.
Yea I think I converted a lot makers on the sword board and I figured it's time to get the charcoal revolution fired up over here. A lot of great talent here. There is a few web sites that sell charcoal delivered to your door. I'm using El Diablo Brand. It's oven baked mesquite. But if you want to make it yourself, a 55 gallon drum is what I use to try out different species of wood.
With a metal 55 gallon drum drill 8 holes 1 inch in diameter evenly spaced apart around the bottom of the drum about 4 inches up. Take the metal lid and flare out the lip so it fits very loosely to prevent any potentially explosive gases from building up. Cut a 4 inch diameter hole in the center of the lid. Build a wood fire in the bottom of the drum. Throw in wood chunks around 4"x 4"x 8" on top of the fire. The trick here is to add the wood slow enough to keep the fire burning and quick enough to keep it from burning up into nothing but ash. Keep this up until you fill the drum. Place the loose fitting lid on and wait until you sure you have a nice even burn. Then lay a large coffee can lid over the 4 inch hole. This will smuther the flames but will allow the smoke to burp out. Plug the holes around the bottom with some bolts or green sticks. Let the whole thing sit until cool. With practice you will end up with about 50 pounds of quality charcoal lump. Experiment with different wood species. Hardwoods burn hotter and longer. But softwoods produce less sparks.
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Tim, i will give it a try. I like my gas forge becuase of simple convenience. Im new to forging and open to ideas. Please send me info via rmlamey@aol.com,
Thanks, Matt Lamey.
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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson
Thanks, Matt Lamey.
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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson
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- Oct 25, 1999
- Messages
- 184
Hey all.
I too use a open charcoal forge for my knifemaking and let me say it burns as clean as you could want.
tho, i have seen some troubles, as lively has stated, from poor quality charcoal being used.
as for starting the forge, i can get the forge blasting at a great temp in a matter of a minute, everytime.
which leads me to believe that the reason that people dont use them now is due to poor setup of their forge and workshop.
i have spoken to a bladesmith who hates charcoal forges because when he tried it, it left his workshop full of soot.
yet, where i go to forge, there are 5+ forges working frequently and yet there is hardly any dust about the place.
but the whole place was designed properly from the start, with forges in mind.
but, you see, once you get someone saying so strongly how bad a charcoal forge is, a new person entering into the trade will already be thinking that a gas forge is the way to go.
i guess is just spirals out of control from there.
i dont know ... this is just a vague thought really.
D.
I too use a open charcoal forge for my knifemaking and let me say it burns as clean as you could want.
tho, i have seen some troubles, as lively has stated, from poor quality charcoal being used.
as for starting the forge, i can get the forge blasting at a great temp in a matter of a minute, everytime.
which leads me to believe that the reason that people dont use them now is due to poor setup of their forge and workshop.
i have spoken to a bladesmith who hates charcoal forges because when he tried it, it left his workshop full of soot.
yet, where i go to forge, there are 5+ forges working frequently and yet there is hardly any dust about the place.
but the whole place was designed properly from the start, with forges in mind.
but, you see, once you get someone saying so strongly how bad a charcoal forge is, a new person entering into the trade will already be thinking that a gas forge is the way to go.
i guess is just spirals out of control from there.
i dont know ... this is just a vague thought really.
D.
Matt,
If you or any other smith would like to recieve my forge plans please e-mail me your regular address. There's a photo and two line drawings and two pages of text. It takes too much time to send it though e-mail. I'm all set up to send them through the snail mail. The postage is not a problem, it's more important to me to get smiths to try charcoal so don't hesitate to ask me for a set. I'll get them to you straight away.
D,
It's always good to hear from another charcoal head. Sounds like you're on the right track. If you need any help e-mail me or post it here. Or if you just want to swap info. Lets rap. Have you tried using the ash as a flux yet?
Tim
If you or any other smith would like to recieve my forge plans please e-mail me your regular address. There's a photo and two line drawings and two pages of text. It takes too much time to send it though e-mail. I'm all set up to send them through the snail mail. The postage is not a problem, it's more important to me to get smiths to try charcoal so don't hesitate to ask me for a set. I'll get them to you straight away.
D,
It's always good to hear from another charcoal head. Sounds like you're on the right track. If you need any help e-mail me or post it here. Or if you just want to swap info. Lets rap. Have you tried using the ash as a flux yet?
Tim
- Joined
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Good topic Lively!
I'm not a professional bladesmith, but I have learnt forging blades with charcoal. I find it very easy to start a fire and it does burn very clean. Now, I'm glad to read that it produces a reducing atmosphere (can you explain why?). I did't know that you could use charcoal ash instead of borax. Do you mean that you can use ashes to weld a damascus billet, even if they do not melt to coat the steel. More information please!
Thank you for the input. I wish you and your family a Happy New Year!
Claude
I'm not a professional bladesmith, but I have learnt forging blades with charcoal. I find it very easy to start a fire and it does burn very clean. Now, I'm glad to read that it produces a reducing atmosphere (can you explain why?). I did't know that you could use charcoal ash instead of borax. Do you mean that you can use ashes to weld a damascus billet, even if they do not melt to coat the steel. More information please!
Thank you for the input. I wish you and your family a Happy New Year!
Claude
Claude,
Another charcoal head, Cool! I don't know why charcoal burns with a reducing atmosphere. It just naturally does, but I would like to know the answer to that question too so if anyone knows please share it with the rest of us.
Yes you can use ash as a flux to weld with. You apply it to the steel around a red heat just like borax. It doesn't melt at this temp but it sticks. It will look like a fuzzy cocoon. Then bring the steel up to the welding temperature and you will see it bubble a little. If you are use to looking at the steel and waiting to see sparks from the carbon burning to tell you when the steel is ready for welding you won't see that with an ash flux. You know when it's ready when you see the ash start to melt and bubble. The ash flux encapsulates the steel and thats why you don't see sparks at a welding temp. If there is a small spot on the steel where you didn't get the ash on you will see sparks shooting out of this hole. When you hammer on the steel at this temp is when you will see the sparks fly. At the proper temperature you will find the ash flux is noticably easier to weld with compared to borax. When you use ash flux for welding Damascus you will end up with more mass compared to using borax too. You lose a lot of mass making Damascus with borax. So ash flux is free, easier to weld with, less messy and you end up with more material. In a gas forge though it tends to blow off before you get to welding heat so it works best in a charcoal forge. You can weld small delicate things together with ash flux too. If you try to do this with borax you will get nothing but a blob of slag. Borax will eat up the metal tuyere in your forge. Ash flux will stick to the tuyere but it will pop right off when it's cooled. I see no advantages to borax what so ever. It's a good idea to use as clean of an ash as you can though. If you have small chunks of charcoal in the ash it will create little cold spots when it comes in contact with the hot steel. I clean my ash by mixing it in water and pouring it through cheesecloth into a pot. Then put the pot in an oven to evaporate the water. Have fun with it Claude.
Tim
Another charcoal head, Cool! I don't know why charcoal burns with a reducing atmosphere. It just naturally does, but I would like to know the answer to that question too so if anyone knows please share it with the rest of us.
Yes you can use ash as a flux to weld with. You apply it to the steel around a red heat just like borax. It doesn't melt at this temp but it sticks. It will look like a fuzzy cocoon. Then bring the steel up to the welding temperature and you will see it bubble a little. If you are use to looking at the steel and waiting to see sparks from the carbon burning to tell you when the steel is ready for welding you won't see that with an ash flux. You know when it's ready when you see the ash start to melt and bubble. The ash flux encapsulates the steel and thats why you don't see sparks at a welding temp. If there is a small spot on the steel where you didn't get the ash on you will see sparks shooting out of this hole. When you hammer on the steel at this temp is when you will see the sparks fly. At the proper temperature you will find the ash flux is noticably easier to weld with compared to borax. When you use ash flux for welding Damascus you will end up with more mass compared to using borax too. You lose a lot of mass making Damascus with borax. So ash flux is free, easier to weld with, less messy and you end up with more material. In a gas forge though it tends to blow off before you get to welding heat so it works best in a charcoal forge. You can weld small delicate things together with ash flux too. If you try to do this with borax you will get nothing but a blob of slag. Borax will eat up the metal tuyere in your forge. Ash flux will stick to the tuyere but it will pop right off when it's cooled. I see no advantages to borax what so ever. It's a good idea to use as clean of an ash as you can though. If you have small chunks of charcoal in the ash it will create little cold spots when it comes in contact with the hot steel. I clean my ash by mixing it in water and pouring it through cheesecloth into a pot. Then put the pot in an oven to evaporate the water. Have fun with it Claude.
Tim
If I were doing nothing but BLACKSMITHING
I might understand but for Bladesmithing
It doesn't make sence to me, the statements
you made about the not being able to hold
a reducing atmosphere in a gas forge without
standing on your head.
I have use charc. and it is great for welding
mild steel because you can get great concentrated heat, but for forging high carbon steels you will harm the steel by
getting it too hot.
I have talked to several bladesmiths that
started with charcoal and switched to propane
and you couldn't get them to switch back.
Quote: Even if you paid me 100.00 a day I
wouldn't switch back. Wayne Goddard. He's
been making knives for a couple of years
more than I have and I agree.
I can have welding heat in my forge in 8 min
from a cold start. How fast can you do it
with charc?
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http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91
[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 29 December 1999).]
I might understand but for Bladesmithing
It doesn't make sence to me, the statements
you made about the not being able to hold
a reducing atmosphere in a gas forge without
standing on your head.
I have use charc. and it is great for welding
mild steel because you can get great concentrated heat, but for forging high carbon steels you will harm the steel by
getting it too hot.
I have talked to several bladesmiths that
started with charcoal and switched to propane
and you couldn't get them to switch back.
Quote: Even if you paid me 100.00 a day I
wouldn't switch back. Wayne Goddard. He's
been making knives for a couple of years
more than I have and I agree.
I can have welding heat in my forge in 8 min
from a cold start. How fast can you do it
with charc?
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http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!
Romans 10:9,10
Hebrews 4:12-16
Psalm 91
[This message has been edited by goshawk (edited 29 December 1999).]
Goshawk,
Settle down guy, Just because I feel charcoal is a better fuel doesn't mean I'm personally attacking you. Why get so defensive? First of all there is no danger in burning the steel any more so than with any other fuel. And if I were a blacksmith I would use gas. The real advantage to charcoal is because it's easier on high carbon. If I was working with low carbon and not concerned with a knife edge any fuel would work just fine. And I believe an experienced smith can get coal and gas to work just fine for high carbon steel too. And you don't have to stand on your head to do it like you suggested that I said. Wayne Goddard has been very supportive of my ideas in the past and I very much respect what he has to say. But the biggest problems I've run into with my charcoal ideas is from the bladesmith who has found a comfortable way of making a living using gas for years and they somehow think that I'm out to destroy their way. I'm not. I do make bold statements and that leaves me open for cheap shots. But I'm tough, I can take it. And I feel I'm right so I don't walk in tradition just because it feels good.
Settle down guy, Just because I feel charcoal is a better fuel doesn't mean I'm personally attacking you. Why get so defensive? First of all there is no danger in burning the steel any more so than with any other fuel. And if I were a blacksmith I would use gas. The real advantage to charcoal is because it's easier on high carbon. If I was working with low carbon and not concerned with a knife edge any fuel would work just fine. And I believe an experienced smith can get coal and gas to work just fine for high carbon steel too. And you don't have to stand on your head to do it like you suggested that I said. Wayne Goddard has been very supportive of my ideas in the past and I very much respect what he has to say. But the biggest problems I've run into with my charcoal ideas is from the bladesmith who has found a comfortable way of making a living using gas for years and they somehow think that I'm out to destroy their way. I'm not. I do make bold statements and that leaves me open for cheap shots. But I'm tough, I can take it. And I feel I'm right so I don't walk in tradition just because it feels good.
- Joined
- Jun 12, 1999
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i was using the NJ blacksmiths association's forge. i don't forge alot, so i haven't really looked into different forges and fuels. i have to use natural gas, becuase i'm forging our of my garage, and coal's to dirty for it. i don't have eathier of my forges running right know, or i'd be trying to make damascus.
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- May 11, 1999
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I haven't had any experiences with forging yet because I'm just now begining making knives. It seems very interesting, the art of forging, and I've looked at some gas forges and seen a short article on a charcoal forge in "Blade" magazine. The question I ask is, what is "natrul" charcoal? Is it like Kingsford or Matchlite or do you produce it from burning wood? Hope these questions aren't sounding to dumb. If you could also show some proper forge designs that would be great. Happy Holidays.
Magnum .44,
I have talked to several smiths in similar situations. By all means use what works for you. Jim Hrisoulas told me the city of Las Vegas made him stop using charcoal so he switched to gas. Hey you got to do what you got to do. Good luck getting your forge up and running again.
Tim
I have talked to several smiths in similar situations. By all means use what works for you. Jim Hrisoulas told me the city of Las Vegas made him stop using charcoal so he switched to gas. Hey you got to do what you got to do. Good luck getting your forge up and running again.
Tim
Sammy,
Check out Don Fogg's site. He has a bunch of great forge plans and a lot of other great stuff. http://www.dfoggknives.com
Tim
Check out Don Fogg's site. He has a bunch of great forge plans and a lot of other great stuff. http://www.dfoggknives.com
Tim
- Joined
- Nov 13, 1998
- Messages
- 2,598
Thanks for the offer Tim, i will email you my mailing address.
Folks seem to get as passionate with there fuel type as they do with "there" steel type!!
I think as with steel, there is much room for disagreemant. We need to look at the big picture and realize we are arguing over "minutia".
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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson
Folks seem to get as passionate with there fuel type as they do with "there" steel type!!
I think as with steel, there is much room for disagreemant. We need to look at the big picture and realize we are arguing over "minutia".
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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson
- Joined
- Nov 13, 1998
- Messages
- 2,598
Thanks Tim, looking forward to the new challenge in charcoal.
I also like 0-1...but i must say that W-2 is the most under rated steel out there. Dont know why more folks dont use it...
I guess its a little hard to find. I just bought all of what Texas Knife Makers had. They didnt have a mill test report, so i am not sure what the variation in the carbon level is...Im told it varies greatly in W-2.
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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson
I also like 0-1...but i must say that W-2 is the most under rated steel out there. Dont know why more folks dont use it...
I guess its a little hard to find. I just bought all of what Texas Knife Makers had. They didnt have a mill test report, so i am not sure what the variation in the carbon level is...Im told it varies greatly in W-2.
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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson