Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

Diemaker said:
Weird is a good term. I was thinking finer grained too but wanted to see how fine of an edge it would take before saying it.
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It will take a very fine edge. I should have ground bevels on it for you :D. It becames people's favorite when they get a chance to try it.
 
In some ways that would be nice but the current plates are perfect for what I need them for. It makes it much easier to grind the size bevel I want.
 
Diemaker said:
Wow, lots of questions! Let me know if I miss one, here goes.

The tapes don't last very long, at best 2 or 3 smaller knives. They are aluminum oxid and they feel like a very fiable type to me. Great for polishing but it breaks down fast. I think that after a fresh dress the diamond stones cut almost as fast as the polish tapes but won't quite polish as well as the second or third knives sharpend, after which they are pretty consistent. When

It sounds like Simple Green isn't a problem, but I don't know if it is any better than a little soap. I think the only thing a little soap would do is help keep the stones clean, but you will still need to clean them with some alchohol occasionaly.

I like regular stones for softer steel, but like the diamond stones for anything hard enough for them to really work well, say roughly 58 rc. I think the diamond leaves less of a burr when doing edge trailing passes, this is something I would like feedback on.

The softer the steel the lower the grit that works. We all have observed that while going through the grit progression the scratches start to get deeper at some point. The softer the steel the lower the grit it happens with. The difference between the 4000 and 6500 is tiny in the best circumstances, under the microscope. The 6500 needs good 60+ rc steel to work better than the 4000. If that is all you sharpen then you may want the 6500 instead of the 4000, you can go from the 2300 to either the 6500 or 9000, which is the finest I have found works on anything, so far only on ceramic.

EP is getting in some 240 grit aluminum oxide for dressing these stones. They dress the same way as any other stone, just much faster since the resin isn't that hard. Be real gentle dressing them, this is where all of the wear is for the 2300 and up, not in using them. How true this is on the 650 and 1100 is yet to be seen. Dress them until they look clean again and no longer. Dressing with wet loose abrasive on a flat plate leaves these stones performing best, significantly better than using 200-320 sandpaper wet, or anything else I have tried. The secret to getting the most out of the resin bond stones is dressing, it can completely change the way they work.

Thank you for your interest!
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I understand that dressing EP diamond stone with 240 aluminum oxide is not same as dressing water stones or EP stock aluminum oxide stones. Aluminum oxide is softer than diamond, so you are not lapping the stone(shaving off high spots) but cleaning it. I might be wrong but I think that diamond stones stay relatively flat and can’t be lapped. I might be wrong, so it’s more of the question than statement.
 
William Gann said:
I understand that dressing EP diamond stone with 240 aluminum oxide is not same as dressing water stones or EP stock aluminum oxide stones. Aluminum oxide is softer than diamond, so you are not lapping the stone(shaving off high spots) but cleaning it. I might be wrong but I think that diamond stones stay relatively flat and can’t be lapped. I might be wrong, so it’s more of the question than statement.
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No, it flattens it just fine. It's not a piece of pure diamond, it's Diamond suspended in a resin bond. Yes, the stones are not prone to dishing. David has done a lot of testing, he prefers the Aluminum Oxide Abrasive Powder for dressing and lapping.

My concern is that it sounds like your making an argument to try to use diamond or CBN to lap or dress the stones.

That's a big "no-no" you don't want to damage the expensive grains you just want to cut the bonding. That's why AlOx is used.
 
The abrasive used to dress the Matrix stones isn't too important. I have used anything from 55 micron, 240 grit, BROWN AlOx to 5 micron white AlOx and several others in between with success. I picked brown AlOx because it lasts the longest in this application. When dressing the Matrix stones what you are doing is wearing the resin away around the diamond crystals and a loose abrasive on a flat surface does this the best. On a hard surface I can dress .001" off the thickness every 3 minutes on the finer grits with the 55 micron AlOx that EP sells. On the 250 it takes a lot longer because the diamond crystals are so big. The surface gets bumpier as you wear away the resin but the diamond crystals are still there so the overall thickness doesn't change. I think there is very little difference between dressing resin bond diamond stones and any other stone. The loose abrasive will wear away the bond and some abrasives until the stone is flat. The finer details are different but the basic process and end result is the same. Ben has tried the brown AlOx when dressing their standard AlOx stones and thinks it works fine.

As for the Matrix stones dishing I think like any stone they do dish. The difference is they wear so slowly that it takes a while, like years if you use them properly and don't dress them, before you would notice it.

As Shawn said you do not want to use a diamond plate to lap the Matrix stones. I think what will happen is the Matrix stone would get lapped fine but your lapping plate will get the points on the diamond crystals lapped flat.
 
David, would there be any particular problems if, say, the 2300 grit matrix stone was maintained with the original 60 grit SiC powder provided by Edge Pro with the leveling kits from past years?
 
Not really, other than excessive wear on the stone. I would suggest either dressing your Matrix stone after dressing other stones so the Sic slurry is somewhat broken down or dressing the Matrix stone on a flattened AlOx stone. I have done this by setting the mounted EP stone on a piece of rubber after soaking it in water, then lapping the Matrix stone on it in figure 8 passes. Let it build up a little mud and it will only take 15 to 30 seconds total to dress the Matix stone, and clean the AlOx stone. I have done this using 1x6 mounted Shapton Glass stones, which worked great for dressing both. The 2300 really will not need to be flattened, just cleaned by removing a tiny amount of resin, say .00001" or less. Yes, 5 decimal points.
 
Diemaker said:
I would suggest either dressing your Matrix stone after dressing other stones so the Sic slurry is somewhat broken down
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That's exactly the thought I had. Thank you, David. (I usually leave the old finer "powder" on the glass after use.)
 
Great thread. Wish I'd read this first before sharpening my maxamet Native. I was adjusting for stone thickness which seems unnecessary and apexing the edge with coarse stones. Not the end of the world, but it makes perfect sense not to do that. So obvious now that I read it here...

I got the edge I wanted without too much trouble. Removing scratches (aesthetic only) took more time. Finished with a 6 and 3 micron basswood strops.

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Going to order the 2300 and 4000 stones to replace the 2K-3K tapes, hope the finish is as nice or close.
 
The 4000 leaves a better finish than the 3000 but not as nice as the 6000 tape. After sharpening the first knife or two after dressing the finish will improve with the Matrix stones, they need a little use to settle in after dressing.
 
Great, can't wait to try em' out! So if I read correctly they need dressing/flattening every 10-20 knives or so? Does the process take about the same amount of time the standard EP stones take with the 80 grit SIC on glass?
 
Depends on the grit, the coarser stones take longer, but 10 to 30 seconds for the 4000 to 650 with the 240 AlOx. How often you dress depends a lot on how you sharpen, AND your preference for how the stones work. Dressing makes a BIG difference in their character, they are much more aggressive right after dressing. The 10-20 knives would be good for the 2300 and 4000, the coarser stones should be able to go longer, except for your coarsest stone that does the bulk of the work. You will need to clean them with alcohol between dressings. I finally got some mineral oil a few days ago and am trying to try it out this afternoon, if I can get a few minutes of play time. I am hoping it works a little better than water to keep the finer grits from turning as black, as fast.
 
NORTHWEST_KNIFE_GUY said:
Going to order the 2300 and 4000 stones to replace the 2K-3K tapes, hope the finish is as nice or close.
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What Diemaker said. :) I don't get the very last level of mirror polish, but I can get there with a wood strop and diamond polish. It would not be terrible to have an 8K stone.

I am finding that getting the edge right with the 250 (when needed) is critical. Then each subsequent stone just getting rid of scratches from the previous stone. If I'm not changing the edge angle and it isn't too dull I'll start with the 650 or 1100 stone. I can get newsprint cutting sharpness off these. I'm also following EP instructions to use them wet and use only trailing strokes on 2300/4000 stones. (EDIT: now using trailing stokes on all of them once I get it apexed per Diemaker's recommendation.)

Diemaker said:
I finally got some mineral oil a few days ago and am trying to try it out this afternoon, if I can get a few minutes of play time. I am hoping it works a little better than water to keep the finer grits from turning as black, as fast.
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Interesting on the mineral oil. Sounds messy, but if it works I'll deal with it.
 
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Not too much mess, it doesn't take much so it is easy to keep contained. Since it doesn't dry out it is easier to keep the sharpening results consistent. I have only sharpened one knife, a 15V, and want to work with it a little more before saying too much. I have taken some photos of the bevel with my microscope and will post them later to show the 160 to .1 micron progression.
 
Diemaker said:
Not too much mess, it doesn't take much so it is easy to keep contained. Since it doesn't dry out it is easier to keep the sharpening results consistent. I have only sharpened one knife, a 15V, and want to work with it a little more before saying too much. I have taken some photos of the bevel with my microscope and will post them later to show the 160 to .1 micron progression.
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I took some shots of the 80-4000 progression on S90V the other day. The 80 grit is proving to be a gem. I probably won’t use it often, but it’ll be a go-to for sure. I might have to use my Atoma 140 as a door stop now.
 
David Richardson said:
My stones were looking pretty bad. Based on what I read here I don't need to flatten them yet. Cleaned them with alcohol per the recommendation. Quite the difference.

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How did you do that exactly? I use 99% isopropyl and a paper towel. No where near that good.
 
I just received my set of Diamond Matrix stones yesterday, 80 grit through 4000 grit. I tested them on my ZT0566 in Elmax that had seen a lot of use and had chipped out, I'm very impressed with the speed and feel of the the cutting action it's unlike anything else I've ever used. The 4000 polishing stone leaves a refined yet aggressive edge, more aggressive than the 2000 - 3000 polishing tapes from Edge Pro. I purchased some Jende Industries diamond lapping films in 3 micron, 1 micron, and .5 micron to use with some of your new hard anodized polishing tape blanks to follow the progression, I'll share the results as soon as I get them and have had time to test them.
 
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