Ernies thoughts on steel

Joined
Oct 6, 1998
Messages
376
I thought I would post this in it's own thread so that people not following the other could read it.

Hello all,

Let me straighten out some of the misinformation being spread about steels in use
by ourselves and most other factories.

1) Hitachi Metals is not ceasing to produce ATS-34. In fact, they are in the
process of trying to improve their manufacturing operations so that they mat
provide a cleaner melt and finer end product. ATS is not garbage and is one of the
best steels available.

2) We use 154CM because Crucible Steel approached us 2 1/2 years ago with the
proposition of producing 154CM in usable sizes (sheets) and wanted to know if knife
companies were still interested in their steel.

We consulted with Microtech who were already starting to use 154. They were
extremely pleased with Crucibles processes, delivery, and product. The steel had a
proven battle record for blades and I had used it almost 20 years earlier on my
custom blades.

154CM is the parent steel of ATS-34 and is U.S. made. We are extremely pleased
with 154CM and have never had any complaints about the performance of our
steel.

We produce tens of thousands knives per year and have well over one hundred
thousand out in the hands of users. Bear in mind that these really are hard use
customers and we are completely satisfied with the performance of 154CM.

It is heat treated per my specs and use a double temper and -120 cryogenic
treatment. This can be varified through our heat treater whose number I will gladly
provide to anyone who so desires.

3) Latrobe BG-42 is a good steel, even a great steel. The heat treating is not
exotic and any commercial heat treater can heat to specs required including the
-120 treatment which is the standard cryo figure.

Unfortunately, Latrobe Steel provides BG-42 for bearing applications and not
specifically for knifemaking applications. This is handled by their specialty steels
division. They produce the steel in bar stock and in small runs of such. Bar stock
will not work for major manufacturing processes. Most companies use lasers like
ours that require sheet stock material.

Yes, Latrobe will do a run for a certain quantity and dollar amount. It is not always
the price but the ongoing availability of raw material that is the determining factor
in choices made by manufacturers.

Our factory is set up on a just in time model and long lead times and guarantees of
only small quantities, prohibit the use of this steel.

The Latrobe company does not look at the knife industry as a large enough
customer to release mill time to address to address cutlery in the tonnage needed
to supply major manufacturers at this time.

Perhaps this will change in the near or distant future. Remember, they make this
steel for turbine bearings and almost all of their production goes to that application.

I hope this helps address and clarify some concerns that you all may have.

Sincerely,
Ernest Emerson
Emerson SpecWar Knives
Emerson Knives Inc.



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Emersonknives.com

The #1 Hard Use Knives In The World
 
Well,
It is just AWESOME to hear from THE MAN himself. Thanks for taking the time Mr. Emerson.

-Scott
 
Thanks for the reply Mr. Emerson. This seems to clear up questions concerning your use of knife steels. I was also under the impression that Hitachi was intending to continue the production of ATS-34. You post answered that as well.


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Usual Suspect
 
First let me state that I misunderstood the thread earlier. I thought we were discussing custom knives. My comments earlier were specific to custom knives.

These are geard toward factory knives.

Latrobe has already been in contact with several custom knife makers around the country asking them how they can better serve the needs of the custom knife community. You'll notice different steel companies are starting to offer it as an option.

Greg Lightfoot, Brian Tighe, Chris Reeve, RJ Martin, Johnny Stout and several others are now using this as their standard steel. As BG-42 becomes easier to get, then you will see more makers and companies switch to it.

Your knife factory should surely be able to utilize a mill run of BG-42 from Latrobe.

As for steel being specifically made for knives, other than Damascus hand forged in a shop, no commerical steel is originally or specifically made for a knife application.

Just like titanium and carbon fiber, mainstays of the tactical folder market were not made exclusively for the knife market.

So much for the argument about specific applications.

Its ok Ernie, just admit it, with a factory it's all about the bottom line. ATS-34 and 154CM are cheaper and easier to work.

If 154CM is such a good steel why did most of the custom makers turn their back on it starting in the late 80's and through the 90's and go with ATS-34. Two reasons 1) Bob Loveless said it was better and it became cheaper and easier to get. BOTTOM LINE is the driving force at the factory level. Nothing wrong with that, but lets cut through the rehtoric.

Why are makers returning to 154CM, it gives the illusion of changing steels, providing a better product. Even Blade Magazine has on the cover "154CM is back". Where did it go?

Guys like George Herron have been using 154CM for 25 years.

It is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make the new knife consumer thinking that they are getting something new and exciting.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it's called "Marketing". Again, at the factory level, nothing wrong with it.

But please don't try and tell the general public that ATS-34 and 154CM are the best steels out there for a knife. We all know this is simply not true.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
Actually, Les, to my knowledge, 154CM had some problems years back in regards to purity. If I remember correctly, Crucible didn't develop their process to keep up with the advancements in steel manufacture. At the time you got pretty much the exact same properties out of ATS34 as you could with 154CM, except the ATS was a much cleaner steel with a finer grain. Crucible has since then refined their process and currently 154CM is a cleaner steel than ATS34. It is however just a question of time before the ATS34 process is cleaned up and again ATS34 will offer an excellent. Actually I would dare say that ATS34 has always been a good steel. I have never been disappointed when using it, that's for sure.

------------------
Regards
Joshua "Kage" Calvert

"Move like Water, strike like Thunder..."
 
Joshua,

Your point is well taken, and probably correct. As you pointed out, 154CM is now a cleaner steel than ATS-34. Having looked at ATS-34 under a microscope I was amazed at all the extra "garbage" in the steel.

Emerson brought up Micro Tech using 154CM. While this is true, they are also now using 3V and another steel. While the 3V at this time requires a coating to keep it from rusting. Crucible is working on a stainless 3V. This will probably be an excellent steel for tactical folders.

There are also some "composite" type steels coming out of Japan. These will be several months down the road before they surface on more than just some prototypes.

Again, with factories, it is very difficult and somewhat costly to change and experiment.

This why most of the major factories have gone to using custom knifemakers designs for their mainstay of products.

Al Mar recognized this trend in the 70's when he was working at Gerber. So nothing new there. Just that machines available now make the level of factory knife better than it has ever been.

However, becuase the "bottom line" dicates how much profit needs to be made per knife, the best materials will be only offered on a limited few knives offered by the factory. The main problem is that the price starts to approach the cost of a custom knife.

Camillus has a new knife out designed by Rob Simonich using Talonite. I belive the retail is $345 or something like that. My Custom Vanguard knife from Rob, limited edition, with Talonite, Carbon Fiber and multi-position Kydex sheath is $450.00.

Point being, why buy a copy when for only $105 more you can have the real thing.

That like paying $150 for a commmander and for only $105 more you could get a ES-1M or a CQC8. Which one would you buy? Exactly.

Price point does make a difference.

Joshua, I belive you to be correct. Part of the reason that makers are going back to 154CM is because it is now cleaner than ATS-34. But that is only part of the story.



------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
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