Is Busse the new Randall?

[kurodrago]

Why I have to wait years and pay hundreds of dollars for a piece 01 steel?.....I don't get the fuss Too! I never see INFI as a supersteel, INFI to me is a new steel wich is better than 01 and hold the edge much longer than 01 or 1095. ' Of course many other steels that have a better edge Retention than INFI but they're too brittle in comparison. Something on the line S30,35,60,90V great edge retention for foldersthey don't come cheap too
Whats so special about INFI....INFI is an impact steel, wich can take abuse like nothing in use on the market to day.
Is Busse better than Randall, in many way Yes. Is Busse the new Randall, No...But Busse use novation materials, Randall do Not".

Is the son of your son, son the New You

 

[hardheart]

Whats so special about INFI....INFI is an impact steel, wich can take abuse like nothing in use on the market to day.

I wish I knew where the data comes from for this to keep getting posted. Once there are some charpy or izod numbers to compare to 5160, 1055, S7, etc, then it could be said. Otherwise, saying a piece of steel 5/16 thick is tougher than a piece of steel 3/16 thick isn't saying anything at all. 0.035" thick behind the edge is tougher than 0.020" behind the edge. More steel is tougher than less steel, so there is no direct comparison. Geometry beats alloy and heat treat. INFI is tough, but what steel is it tougher than?That is a huge difference between the two companies as well. Randall uses pretty unspectacular and very common steel, while Busse is directly associated with a proprietary alloy. They have reps for very different reasons.

 

[shunsui]

Infi ? Isn't anyone concerned about Randall's O1 vs BlackJack Knives' A2 in the same knife pattern ?

Is BlackJack the new Randall ?

 

[kurodrago]

5160, 1055, S7, etc, then it could be said...

Well, I don't know where you're going with that equation.
1055 is just perfect as impact steel goes but the edge holding is near crap not to mention that will rust miserly easy.
S7 or SR101 are good too, take a wild guess and go to figure which knife Co. sell those steels

 

[hudak]

Back in the day when Randall was making his bones, knife guys had different needs. He did a lot with the men that wanted reliable hunting knives, working knives, and of course for the military. I had two different friends that had fathers that carried Randalls in combat in Vietnam. They loved them, and they looked like they had been used for everything you could imagine. One still has his Dad's, but won't use it as he is afraid he will lose it somewhere. The men that carried Randalls would not have carried anything else.

Randall didn't know that the upcoming market would require knives that chop and hack. One of the requirements of the backyard survivalist these days is to be a good chopper. Chopping up firewood and zombies, batoning, clearing firing lanes (when you could shoot down the cow path), and other skills that weren't required just 20 years ago are now reflected in today's military/tactical/survival knives as a must. I have been "rough" camping, hiking and hunting for almost 50 years. Not out of a car, but with all equipment on my back for a few days trek.

I never knew until I joined this forum how important batoning was to my enjoyment and maybe actual survival, nor did I know that there were so damn many 1/4" or better thick knives! I don't think Randall ever anticipated the need to split a 6" log on a regular basis nor thought of a sheath knife as a weed clearing device or even a brush chopper. Back in their heyday, they made knives as heavy duty, durable, cutting instruments. They just didn't know better. Hell, we didn't know better!

I have no doubt that a sharpened piece of bar stock with micarta screwed on as scales is much more durable than the old Randall knives of 40 years ago. I also have no doubt that INFI is better than many of the old Randall steels; time, science and technology will easily make that happen.

As far as being collectables, who knows? I think that Busse will have to have a lot of folks that step forth from the shadows with their own personal experiences of using them while guiding Alaskan hunts for 20 years, using them in the Amazon as their only knife, and of course testimony from the guys in the military that relied on them to survive while in combat before they will catch the provenance of Randall.

75 years of history might do it...

Still, not saying that Busses won't fetch more money from their collectors.

Robert

What a great post and accurate summation on this topic.

 

[hardheart]

Well, I don't know where you're going with that equation.

Goingin the direction you pointed.

Whats so special about INFI....INFI is an impact steel, wich can take abuse like nothing in use on the market to day.

1055 is just perfect as impact steel goes but the edge holding is near crap not to mention that will rust miserly easy.

Now if you want to bring in wear resistance or corrosion resistance, or any combination of the three, I can list plenty. 3V, L6, 12C27M, Viking, H-1, etc etc.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I wish I knew where the data comes from for this to keep getting posted. Once there are some charpy or izod numbers to compare to 5160, 1055, S7, etc, then it could be said. Otherwise, saying a piece of steel 5/16 thick is tougher than a piece of steel 3/16 thick isn't saying anything at all. 0.035" thick behind the edge is tougher than 0.020" behind the edge. More steel is tougher than less steel, so there is no direct comparison. Geometry beats alloy and heat treat. INFI is tough, but what steel is it tougher than?That is a huge difference between the two companies as well. Randall uses pretty unspectacular and very common steel, while Busse is directly associated with a proprietary alloy. They have reps for very different reasons.

Pretty much my thoughts as a whole. Again--not saying that INFI isn't good. Just that I don't quite get all the mysticism around it. It can't be THAT different from other steels, really, or else we'd likely be seeing articles about it in scientific journals. There's about a 90%+ chance in my mind that there's a VERY comparable steel out there. It's just without someone sending out a blade for chemical analysis we aren't going to know for sure.

 

[hardheart]

Analysis has already been done on the alloy composition, just need to test it for concrete mesures of abrasive wear resistance, impact toughness, and corrosion resistance. The test methodologies are standardized and recognized.

 

[The Mastiff]

Whats so special about INFI....INFI is an impact steel, wich can take abuse like nothing in use on the market to day.

Busse themselves say S7 is tougher, but "Infi" has better wear resistance.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Analysis has already been done on the alloy composition, just need to test it for concrete mesures of abrasive wear resistance, impact toughness, and corrosion resistance. The test methodologies are standardized and recognized.

I'll be honest--I haven't kept my fingers to the pulse of that issue so it's news to me!

 

[sodak]

Analysis has already been done on the alloy composition, just need to test it for concrete mesures of abrasive wear resistance, impact toughness, and corrosion resistance. The test methodologies are standardized and recognized.

Thank you. That would be interesting! I do like INFI and 52100 for my purposes, but don't regard either as "magic" or "indestructible".

 

[Ken44]

No, Busse is not the new Randall.

There will never be a "new" Randall. Nothing will ever replace the history that goes along with Randall.

Totally different companies. I have and like both.

 

[mamun1024]

No, Busse is not the new Randall.

There will never be a "new" Randall. Nothing will ever replace the history that goes along with Randall.

Totally different companies. I have and like both.

^^^^ Bingo

 

[Eight Trigrams]

No, Busse is not the new Randall.

There will never be a "new" Randall. Nothing will ever replace the history that goes along with Randall.

Totally different companies. I have and like both.

There was a time when people were saying the same thing about Camillus. Or Schrade. Or the Sheffield makers.

In an open market, nothing is sacred. Everything is replaceable.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Pretty much my thoughts as a whole. Again--not saying that INFI isn't good. Just that I don't quite get all the mysticism around it. It can't be THAT different from other steels, really, or else we'd likely be seeing articles about it in scientific journals. There's about a 90%+ chance in my mind that there's a VERY comparable steel out there. It's just without someone sending out a blade for chemical analysis we aren't going to know for sure.

This is where I am too. I'm perfectly willing to agree that INFI is great stuff. Maybe even the best on the market. But if I can still baton a fridge in half with something as utterly affordable as 1095CV at a fraction of a cost, I can't ever see myself buying a Busse. I've got an RMD, and that's good enough for me. The thing is, the margin of difference in terms of performance between 1095 and INFI just isn't enough for me personally to justify dropping the MUCH higher price on a Busse versus, say, a Becker. YMMV. I also don't really like Busse designs (except the gladius). Again, that's just me. But I'd MUCH rather spend that kind of dough supporting a custom maker and get exactly what I want. The only thing that Busse really has going for it as near as I can tell is INFI, and I just don't care.

Will Busse have the same kind of reputation in 75 years that Randall does now? Time will tell, although I doubt it, especially given the pro-Busse arguments about how technology and new materials are so important. There have been all kinds of changes in steel and designs and technology within the industry in a very short period of time. There's a new super steel out all the time. In 75 years, there's a reasonably good chance that there will be something as much "better" than Busse as people seem to think Busse is now, and where will Busse be then?

It might be worth going and asking your non-knifenut friends if they've ever heard of Busse. I can't think of anyone that I know around here who has ever heard of Busse. There are so many companies these days and knives are not nearly as ubiquitous as they used to be. SAK's or Ka-bar would probably be the most recognizable to most people. It would be very difficult to develop quite the same kind of history and following in today's day and age, just because it's such a radically different situation from that faced by Randall.

 

[jdm61]

One thing that I will say about Randall is that they may be old, crusty and collectable, BUT the optional "border patrol" handle that you can get on knives like the Model 14, 15, and 16 was a really good design for it's time and still is, IMO. MUCH better than the standard finger groove handle. They are still relevant in many ways although I say they could be MUCH more so just by upgrading their heat treatment for O1 and bagging the stainless that they use. The classic designs are still sound, but something like high temp salt pot HT on the O1 could truly bring them as far into the 21st century as they could stand.

 

[kurodrago]

Infi ? Isn't anyone concerned about Randall's O1 vs BlackJack Knives' A2 in the same knife pattern ?

Is BlackJack the new Randall ?

Good One

:thumbup:

 

[Melvin-Purvis]

midnight flyer, that was the funniest things I've read in weeks - thanks for the laugh!

Here's a new Randall I just picked up, a Model #16-7 'Special Fighter'. It's got the same blade grind as the Classic Randall Model #1 fighting knife, but with a full tang blade. Now sure how it would compare as a chopper, but would likely work well for just about everything else - I'll get back with a review in a few years...

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

This is where I am too. I'm perfectly willing to agree that INFI is great stuff. Maybe even the best on the market. But if I can still baton a fridge in half with something as utterly affordable as 1095CV at a fraction of a cost, I can't ever see myself buying a Busse. I've got an RMD, and that's good enough for me. The thing is, the margin of difference in terms of performance between 1095 and INFI just isn't enough for me personally to justify dropping the MUCH higher price on a Busse versus, say, a Becker. YMMV. I also don't really like Busse designs (except the gladius). Again, that's just me. But I'd MUCH rather spend that kind of dough supporting a custom maker and get exactly what I want. The only thing that Busse really has going for it as near as I can tell is INFI, and I just don't care.

Will Busse have the same kind of reputation in 75 years that Randall does now? Time will tell, although I doubt it, especially given the pro-Busse arguments about how technology and new materials are so important. There have been all kinds of changes in steel and designs and technology within the industry in a very short period of time. There's a new super steel out all the time. In 75 years, there's a reasonably good chance that there will be something as much "better" than Busse as people seem to think Busse is now, and where will Busse be then?

It might be worth going and asking your non-knifenut friends if they've ever heard of Busse. I can't think of anyone that I know around here who has ever heard of Busse. There are so many companies these days and knives are not nearly as ubiquitous as they used to be. SAK's or Ka-bar would probably be the most recognizable to most people. It would be very difficult to develop quite the same kind of history and following in today's day and age, just because it's such a radically different situation from that faced by Randall.

The way I see it is there are the folks who want the BEST and there are the folks who want the BEST VALUE. The two are almost always very different things and in very different price brackets. With any quality good you reach a point of diminishing returns where you pay increasingly large sums of money for rapidly decreasing gains in performance. I happen to like maximizing my performance per dollar ratio, and the items I like to carry on my site reflect that I think. Others like to have the very best money can buy, and that's just dandy. There's nothing wrong with having the best, providing you can afford it and it makes you happy.

 

[midnight flyer]

midnight flyer, that was the funniest things I've read in weeks - thanks for the laugh!

Here's a new Randall I just picked up, a Model #16-7 'Special Fighter'. It's got the same blade grind as the Classic Randall Model #1 fighting knife, but with a full tang blade. Now sure how it would compare as a chopper, but would likely work well for just about everything else - I'll get back with a review in a few years...

View attachment 264864

I have never seen a knife forum that has redefined what a knife is so completely. Nor have I ever seen such a divided group of individuals that worry so much about the performance of their knives. Then I laugh my butt off when I see something like this:

By cuddling with her cat, woman is found alive after more than three weeks lost in New Mexico forest
by Alex Ballingall on Monday, March 12, 2012 8:23am

As tales of survival go, this one is pretty impressive. A 41-year-old woman named Margaret Page went missing after she and her cat Miya veered off a hiking trail and got lost in the Gila National Forest in New Mexico. As for supplies, she had a bag of pretzels, some cat food and a sleeping bag.

That was more than three weeks ago.

With whipping winds and temperatures dipping below freezing, Page managed to stay alive by huddling with Miya every night in her blue sleeping bag. When rescuers finally found her, Page was emaciated and weak, but well-hydrated. Apparently, she was able to survive on water from a nearby creek.

The cat, meanwhile, remained relatively lively thanks to the spoils of its daily hunting. “Her cat was in better shape than she was,” Marc Levesque of the New Mexico State Police Search and Rescue told the Associated Press.

As her rescuers carried her away to a waiting ambulance, Page’s main concern was the well-being of her cat Miya. Without its body heat and camaraderie, she might never have left that New Mexico forest.


I would be willing to bet she never saw a zombie (much less killed one), chopped wood to make a shelter, split/batoned wood for a fire, tied her knife to a stick for a spear for hunting/fishing/protection, lit a fire with a glob shooting fire steel struck by her high carbon knife, used the special indent on the scales of a knife as a friction fire spindle pivot, punched holes into a car hood or any of the other things we anticipate we might need should we wander off trail.

And she survived in freezing weather for three frickin' weeks!!!

I would never post those comments in another area of this site. If I did, no doubt there would be a lot of hurt feelings. Some prize utility of a knife much, much more than any refinement. And besides, who really knows when their knife may be called to duty for the tasks mentioned above?

Although I am not a huge fan of Randall knives, I certainly love some of their designs. Time tested, refined, and their knives run the gamut of useful and effective hunting knives all the way to that gorgeous fighter you just bought. And never, ever have I heard of a Randall knife failing when being used, even used hard, as a knife.

As noted here, these are two distinctly different companies with two distinctly different audiences.

Robert

P.S.: I'll be watching for the review...