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Shipping pocket knives USPS illegal
- Thread starter colubrid
- Start date
sigh!
I am not trying to convince. the proof is there and i am sure after this sinks into your head and other peoples heads they will do their own research.
BTW, I have other documents the post office offered with more evidence. They also have another chart and a white sheet of paper they offered to give me of the regs concerning knives. I will get that and post them here as well just for you.
I am not trying to convince. the proof is there and i am sure after this sinks into your head and other peoples heads they will do their own research.
BTW, I have other documents the post office offered with more evidence. They also have another chart and a white sheet of paper they offered to give me of the regs concerning knives. I will get that and post them here as well just for you.
Oh and I have the recording of the postmaster as well. I don't know how to post it here though.
But what more do you want?
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2009
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- 5,168
Handguns are restricted in the mail so they can only be sent between authorized parties like manufacturers, dealers, Class III license holders. Long guns can be mailed between any parties. USPS carries thousands upon thousands of firearms every day.
Knives are also mailable, except for switchblades and gravity/inertia knives. Customs has recently started ruling that assisted openers are switchblades but USPS is not bound by their interpretations so there is no immediate risk to mailing them domestically. Read the section 601.11 of the Domestic Mail Manual to get the official mailing regulations for guns, knives and other restricted stuff. Remember, "restricted" does not mean "prohibited."
You are absolutely correct that local post offices can not make their own determinations about what is mailable or not. Guns are mailable, under certain restrictions, and knives are too.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Thanks for the poster pictures.
It's a long time since 9/11. Where has this regulation been for the past 8 years?
I just came back from my local office. They have no idea what this is all about.
* ****** **** ****** *
I'm still not clear about the information on the chart. I think this entire disagreement hinges on the meaning of "authorized" and why your local office is applying it to ordinary pocket knives, rather than simply to switchblade and gravity knives as the actual DMM regulations do.
I am also unhappy with a chart being used as official doctrine. My post office immediately opened up the DMM (Domestic Mail Manual) and relied on that fuller and clearer definition.
I went to the USPS.com site and found the relevant information on mailability in the DMM. Please note my bolding of the regulations on switchblades, et al., and the large type on other, non-restricted knives.
Note that 11.5.1 a. and b. define the switchblade and other restricted knives and designate authorized agents.
11.5.2 may require recipient identification as authorized.
11.5.3 does NOT require authorized agencies for knives not described in 11.5.1.
* ****** **** ****** *
http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1103548
DMM 601 Mailability
11.0
Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
11.5
Knives and Sharp Instruments
11.5.1 Mailability
Knives (including sharp-pointed instruments such as stilettos that lack cutting edges) with a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle, or by operations of inertia, gravity, or both, or with a detachable blade propelled by a spring-operated mechanism, are mailable only when sent to:
a.
The respective government's or organization's designated supply or procurement officers and employees ordering, procuring, or buying such knives for use with the activities of the federal government; the National Guard, the Air National Guard, or the militia of a state, territory, or the District of Columbia; or the municipal government of the District of Columbia or of the government of any state or territory, or of any county, city, or other political subdivision of a state or territory.
b.
Manufacturers of such knives, or bona fide dealers of such knives, in connection with a shipment made under an order from any person designated in 11.5.1a.
11.5.2 Addressee Identification
Before delivering a shipment (or parcel) that contains an article or articles described in 11.5.1, a USPS employee may require that the recipient identify himself or herself as in one of the categories in 11.5.1a.
11.5.3 Wrapping
Sharp-pointed or sharp-edged instruments such as knives, tools, ice picks, and razor blades, that are otherwise mailable, must be wrapped to protect their points and edges from cutting through the outer carton in which they are mailed.
It's a long time since 9/11. Where has this regulation been for the past 8 years?
I just came back from my local office. They have no idea what this is all about.
* ****** **** ****** *
I'm still not clear about the information on the chart. I think this entire disagreement hinges on the meaning of "authorized" and why your local office is applying it to ordinary pocket knives, rather than simply to switchblade and gravity knives as the actual DMM regulations do.
I am also unhappy with a chart being used as official doctrine. My post office immediately opened up the DMM (Domestic Mail Manual) and relied on that fuller and clearer definition.
I went to the USPS.com site and found the relevant information on mailability in the DMM. Please note my bolding of the regulations on switchblades, et al., and the large type on other, non-restricted knives.
Note that 11.5.1 a. and b. define the switchblade and other restricted knives and designate authorized agents.
11.5.2 may require recipient identification as authorized.
11.5.3 does NOT require authorized agencies for knives not described in 11.5.1.
* ****** **** ****** *
http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1103548
DMM 601 Mailability
11.0
Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
11.5
Knives and Sharp Instruments
11.5.1 Mailability
Knives (including sharp-pointed instruments such as stilettos that lack cutting edges) with a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle, or by operations of inertia, gravity, or both, or with a detachable blade propelled by a spring-operated mechanism, are mailable only when sent to:
a.
The respective government's or organization's designated supply or procurement officers and employees ordering, procuring, or buying such knives for use with the activities of the federal government; the National Guard, the Air National Guard, or the militia of a state, territory, or the District of Columbia; or the municipal government of the District of Columbia or of the government of any state or territory, or of any county, city, or other political subdivision of a state or territory.
b.
Manufacturers of such knives, or bona fide dealers of such knives, in connection with a shipment made under an order from any person designated in 11.5.1a.
11.5.2 Addressee Identification
Before delivering a shipment (or parcel) that contains an article or articles described in 11.5.1, a USPS employee may require that the recipient identify himself or herself as in one of the categories in 11.5.1a.
11.5.3 Wrapping
Sharp-pointed or sharp-edged instruments such as knives, tools, ice picks, and razor blades, that are otherwise mailable, must be wrapped to protect their points and edges from cutting through the outer carton in which they are mailed.
Josh,
This chart is at all United Staes post offices.
http://www.fototime.com/{4C46113D-4...=f&modt=39968.8191232755&ssdyn=1/DSC09959.JPG
Like I said before. if you ship knives it is illegal. just because a postal clerk does not know or is giving the wrong information does not mean it is legal to ship knives. Also they can and will prosecute.
1) it is legal to ship to a manufacturer
2)it is legal to ship to a maker if he is registered with the post office.
3) it was legal to ship knives before 911. it was the federal gov't restrictions that caused the new law under the postal service.
I will gather more info in the next follwoing days and post here again.
DMM 601.8 means that postmasters (and their subordinates) can make mailability rulings at the time something is entered into the mail. It doesn't mean that their ruling will stand. Your appeal rights are listed in DMM 607.2. You will win that one 100% of the time.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
colubrid, I believe that since you got shut out on snakes, you are more willing than you should be to accept your local station's misinterpretation of the DMM. Authorized recipients only applies to switchblades, gravity, inertia, and spring-operated detachable blade knives.
Other knives are not restricted and only need be properly wrapped -- a precaution you'd take with a glass vase or a valuable painting.
Other knives are not restricted and only need be properly wrapped -- a precaution you'd take with a glass vase or a valuable painting.
Wow! Tell them to burn that thing - it has to be at least 6 or 7 years out of date. Can you see a date at the bottom of it? Is that thing an old Poster 138? DMM references haven't included letters (like C028) in years.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2006
- Messages
- 758
It seems to me that the Post Office regulations contradict themselves which is no real surprise.
We can all ship knives with reasonable precautions and everything will go fine. However, when there is a problem the PO can fall back on thier regs to cover thier butt or more likely deny an insurance claim.
It's almost like dealing with the IRS or almost any other government agency where the people running it don't even know the rules and tend to make them up as they go along based on their own interpretations. If you dig through the volumes of regulations you will find those that contradict others.
I would love to see a final definitive answer, in writing, from someone of authority within the Postal System but I think that is very unlikely.
We can all ship knives with reasonable precautions and everything will go fine. However, when there is a problem the PO can fall back on thier regs to cover thier butt or more likely deny an insurance claim.
It's almost like dealing with the IRS or almost any other government agency where the people running it don't even know the rules and tend to make them up as they go along based on their own interpretations. If you dig through the volumes of regulations you will find those that contradict others.
I would love to see a final definitive answer, in writing, from someone of authority within the Postal System but I think that is very unlikely.
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I don't think that the poster is necessarily out-of-date.
Rather, I suspect that, in the attempt to consolidate the relevant information into a chart, they inadvertently made it too vague and therefore subject to misinterpretation, as has happened here.
If you read what Esav quoted from the PO's own regulations, it's really quite clear (albeit written in legalese).
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Postal regulations as I copied them directly from the USPS website are clear and not contradictory. colubrid's postmaster is misinterpreting an otherwise simple directive.
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- Apr 20, 2001
- Messages
- 18,423
That's pretty much the exact same answer my post master gave me.
Another note, last year I had a knife go missing in the mail, and my local post master did everything he could to find it, and during the whole deal, he never once said anything about how it was illegal to have mailed a knife.
Esav,
You should know i don't accept anything easy> Especially a thing like this. I showed them your regs.
Sorry, I mean no offense. But i did everything i said I was going to do to show you guys . You didn't beleive me then and you don't now. I got pics of the chart. i have recorded conversation between me and a postal clerk and the postmaster. I showed them the regs you keep posting and they explained it all very simple. I have a link that is on the USPS website that says "NO KNIVES" not just switchblades. And they have some more documents they offered but i did not take . I will go back tommorow to talk to the postmaster in private. So if you have any hard evedence I can show her please bring it here.
It can't get much simpler than this..Restricted materials (taken from the USPS website cleary shows all knifes and not just switchblades:
http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/posters/pos138/pos138_back.html
I think it's more a case of limited access to those who do know the rules. You are now engaging in a dialogue with one of that handful of people. What I have posted IS the final definitive answer, but for all practical purposes it's just the ravings of another internet windbag. What you need to do is to file an appeal as I mentioned a few posts ago under DMM 607.2. You will get a written final agency decision which will be favorable as long as you are not mailing switchblades. I won't personally write the final agency decision so, if your knife designs fall into the "gray" areas, like assisted openers, it's a coin toss whether they will understand the difference between them and switchblades.
If you want some help filing your appeal, I can help you.