When is it time to ask for a deposit ????????

JParanee

JParanee

Joined
Dec 23, 2006
Messages
15,018
Hello all

I've been very busy of late and I've just not had time to post a lot

The occasional quick comment here and there but nothing to indepth

I've been busy working and my Internet time has been spent reviewing new recurve bow designs and doing some videos on that

I was in Panama fishing with a friend with cancer and to commemorate the trip I just had a Black Marlin Replica done

It was a nice fish that I caught on stand up gear no harness



Well enough fish stories :)

I just got off the phone with a very respected maker friend who pretty much is at the pinnacle of the game right now

At this time I'm not going to mention names ....it's not about that

He received a commission from a patron

This maker like most smart makers does not take a deposit

We that have been in the game long enough have seen the result of makers taking deposits

The patron ordered a very specific piece and as time went on kept uping the build

Adding details like full integral , gold, engraving etc

As every upgrade came in he was quoted the additional charges

When the maker reached out to request payment he was told at this time that payment would not be forthcoming in a time fram that was exceptable to the maker and was than informed all work would cease till payment was arranged

He was than told so sad ...to bad ....order cancelled

Now I have an opinion on deposits and when I believe they are needed and when not

But before I throw my 2 cents in

What say you people of Blade ?
 
Most knife makers do not ask for deposits

I for one will not pay a deposit on a knife

I do believe that in a case like the above mentioned when specific tasks are requested like engraving to a particular taste

Gold inlay

Rare or expensive materials etc are requested than it is fair to ask for a deposit

In the case above I believe the above mentioned maker should of asked for a deposit when the piece became so specific as in engraving and inlay was requested

Opinions ?
 
Taking a deposit and never delivering the piece. It has happened many times.
Joe, I have heard a number of makers say that in a situation like your friend's, the customer must "supply" any crazy expensive raw materials even if the maker does not normally require deposits. I have also heard some say that they will require a deposit and even progress payments if a customer requests something so "unique" that it could not easily be sold to another customer for close to what the maker has in it if the need arose.
Emre said:
I don't understand: what's so bad about taking a deposit?
Click to expand...
 
I think a deposit is required when unique and/or expensive materials are procured on the maker's dime. If everything falls through, even after the knife's been completed, the specifically requested materials purchased by the maker for the project ought to be covered, and that payment should come as soon as the maker prices the stuff out and confirms availability/delivery

Other than that, deposits are a bad idea because they, in and of themselves, can lead to bad outcomes for both parties and for a multitude of reasons which I'm sure will be discussed here

Sucks for a maker to go to the effort of making a specific knife from materials on hand for a specific person, (whose tastes might not be easily marketable/resold) and have them bail on them in the end, (asshole move). But they are a knife maker and are in the business of selling knives, so reselling it shouldn't be too big a stretch

If they have to take a loss on money out of their own pocket, (as opposed to 'just' their time) that ain't right and not a sustainable model. They have the responsibility to themselves to keep that from happening, that's not the customer's job

The customer's job is to pay, and if the person they're dealing with isn't clear about how the payment thing works, that person has no one to blame but themself.
 
A very well known, very respected, very talented and very wise knifemaker once told me that the hardest knife to make is one you've already been paid for.

Joe, I agree that knifemakers shouldn't ask for deposits and collectors shouldn't pay deposits, however the exception is when a commissioned knife design starts getting too specialized and/or personalized and/or expensive to the point the knifemaker wouldn't readily be able to find another buyer if by chance the initial deal went south it's time for the maker to get a deposit. If a collector is going to commission a specialized/personalized/expensive knife they should expect to pay a deposit.
 
Wow. I can't imagine custom ordering a knife, specifying all kinds of ridiculous materials, and not being on the hook for it.

When I had the Cosworth engine built for my race car, I provided the (expensive and very hard to source) valvetrain components and cams. I left a deposit big enough to cover all the machine work up front. Then paid off the remainder when the engine was completed and delivered.
 
In my business we take deposits from all new customers and insist on the remainder to be paid at delivery. Special requests, such as an expedited delivery, come at an even higher premium. Some customers question this practice but to my knowledge no one balks at hiring us because of this. In the end, it works because we, the professionals, provide a good service in the time frame we quote our clients. If an unexpected problem that will effect price or schedule comes up, we communicate it to the client in a timely manner and always absorb any cost associated with our occasional mistake. It's a system that's worked for decades.

There would be no issue with knife makers taking deposits if they could just manage the expectations of their customers in a professional manner.
 
I am sitting on a bowie right now because a guy ordered it and then disappeared.
But I still won't take deposits, people think they own you once you have some of their money.

I just don't take orders for stuff outside of what I make and sell regularly. Unfortunately that means I miss out on some sales and guys miss out on me making one off pieces. But like anything, a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch.

If you have bought and paid for a knife or two from me in the past, it is a lot easier for me trust you and you are likely to get what you are wanting.
 
I generally will not take deposits but for large or unique orders I will sometimes require a deposit to be made. If the knife being made has custom details that will make it unmarketable for another customer then a deposit can be a good tool. As long as you have a strong track record and reputation I don't think taking a deposit is an issue.
 
Kevin Jones said:
A very well known, very respected, very talented and very wise knifemaker once told me that the hardest knife to make is one you've already been paid for.

Joe, I agree that knifemakers shouldn't ask for deposits and collectors shouldn't pay deposits, however the exception is when a commissioned knife design starts getting too specialized and/or personalized and/or expensive to the point the knifemaker wouldn't readily be able to find another buyer if by chance the initial deal went south it's time for the maker to get a deposit. If a collector is going to commission a specialized/personalized/expensive knife they should expect to pay a deposit.
Click to expand...

Well put, fully agree here, in the case quoted.
 
jdm61 said:
Taking a deposit and never delivering the piece. It has happened many times.
Joe, I have heard a number of makers say that in a situation like your friend's, the customer must "supply" any crazy expensive raw materials even if the maker does not normally require deposits. I have also heard some say that they will require a deposit and even progress payments if a customer requests something so "unique" that it could not easily be sold to another customer for close to what the maker has in it if the need arose.
Click to expand...

I agree with all of this
 
I do not request or take deposits.....never have and probably never will. After this long in the game some of my work does include some very expensive skin and/or components. Fortunately timely delivery has never been an issue for me. I have developed very strong relationships with almost all my clients where mutual respect and trust is key. I routinely ship finished product along with an invoice payable upon receipt and, of course my clients have their item back in their hands before they pay a cent. So far I have no write offs to unpaid debt.

Now having said all that, if someone were to stiff me, I would do everything in my loud mouthed power to out them in and on every conceivable venue that is concerned with knives and/or collecting to make sure everyone knows what an asshole they are.

Paul
 
Lorien said:
I think a deposit is required when unique and/or expensive materials are procured on the maker's dime. If everything falls through, even after the knife's been completed, the specifically requested materials purchased by the maker for the project ought to be covered, and that payment should come as soon as the maker prices the stuff out and confirms availability/delivery

Other than that, deposits are a bad idea because they, in and of themselves, can lead to bad outcomes for both parties and for a multitude of reasons which I'm sure will be discussed here

Sucks for a maker to go to the effort of making a specific knife from materials on hand for a specific person, (whose tastes might not be easily marketable/resold) and have them bail on them in the end, (asshole move). But they are a knife maker and are in the business of selling knives, so reselling it shouldn't be too big a stretch

If they have to take a loss on money out of their own pocket, (as opposed to 'just' their time) that ain't right and not a sustainable model. They have the responsibility to themselves to keep that from happening, that's not the customer's job

The customer's job is to pay, and if the person they're dealing with isn't clear about how the payment thing works, that person has no one to blame but themself.
Click to expand...

All great points
 
Kevin Jones said:
A very well known, very respected, very talented and very wise knifemaker once told me that the hardest knife to make is one you've already been paid for.

Joe, I agree that knifemakers shouldn't ask for deposits and collectors shouldn't pay deposits, however the exception is when a commissioned knife design starts getting too specialized and/or personalized and/or expensive to the point the knifemaker wouldn't readily be able to find another buyer if by chance the initial deal went south it's time for the maker to get a deposit. If a collector is going to commission a specialized/personalized/expensive knife they should expect to pay a deposit.
Click to expand...

Amen my friend
 
Emre said:
Wow. I can't imagine custom ordering a knife, specifying all kinds of ridiculous materials, and not being on the hook for it.

When I had the Cosworth engine built for my race car, I provided the (expensive and very hard to source) valvetrain components and cams. I left a deposit big enough to cover all the machine work up front. Then paid off the remainder when the engine was completed and delivered.
Click to expand...

I'm having a Blue Motor built right now and yes I've prepaid for all parts and given a deposit on work

Still risky but that's life in the world of motors

Knife makers are notorious for not being the best business people
 
SpySmasher said:
In my business we take deposits from all new customers and insist on the remainder to be paid at delivery. Special requests, such as an expedited delivery, come at an even higher premium. Some customers question this practice but to my knowledge no one balks at hiring us because of this. In the end, it works because we, the professionals, provide a good service in the time frame we quote our clients. If an unexpected problem that will effect price or schedule comes up, we communicate it to the client in a timely manner and always absorb any cost associated with our occasional mistake. It's a system that's worked for decades.

There would be no issue with knife makers taking deposits if they could just manage the expectations of their customers in a professional manner.
Click to expand...

I will pay deposits on many things

Taxidermy is one of them :)

But in the world of custom knives it's a different story at times

For a special request that will not be easy to sell I will agree to a deposit
 
BenR.T. said:
I am sitting on a bowie right now because a guy ordered it and then disappeared.
But I still won't take deposits, people think they own you once you have some of their money.

I just don't take orders for stuff outside of what I make and sell regularly. Unfortunately that means I miss out on some sales and guys miss out on me making one off pieces. But like anything, a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch.

If you have bought and paid for a knife or two from me in the past, it is a lot easier for me trust you and you are likely to get what you are wanting.
Click to expand...

Your a machine buddy

Would love to see the Bowie post it up
 
Joe

I'm with you and Kevin on this - 99% of the time, deposits are not needed nor should they be requested.

For me, in that 1% might be - very unusual/fantasy blade shape that maker is NOT known for...any engraving done by another artisan...significant amount of precious metal/gemstone ...and possibly, more than (x) number of "changes" in (x) number of months:D

Basically, as you said, it's not fair for a maker to have to "eat" costs for things that cannot be recouped - I mean, you can't just grind off engraving and fail to pay the engraver because someone changes his mind....

Bill
 
JParanee said:
I'm having a Blue Motor built right now and yes I've prepaid for all parts and given a deposit on work

Still risky but that's life in the world of motors

Knife makers are notorious for not being the best business people
Click to expand...

Just think of all the amazing blades that wouldn't get made if knifemakers were all great business people! :D
 
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