“Never give up! Never surrender!”....unless....

[Gary W. Graley]

In the infamous words of Commander Taggart of 'Galaxy Quest' “Never give up! Never surrender!” while that may be true, I think that may not hold up as well when it comes to sharpening a blade that may have less than 'stellar' material/heat treatment.

What I mean is, sometimes, when I'm sharpening a knife, I can get it quite sharp only to have it dull by waving it in the air, or so it seems. The blade steel might be too soft to support the edge bevel and so it can waffle a bit with less edge strength.

While I have had some knives, for instance a fixed blade from Alex Horn, the blade steel core was Hitachi white steel and quite hard and sharpening that was refreshing, you set the bevels and you end up with a very nice toothy edge that cuts well.

I'll not speak ill of those that were not quite as refreshing, as I think that anyone can have an off day or maybe a rushed Friday afternoon and some part of the process was overlooked or just not completed normally. It can happen and it can be quite depressing for those of us that are sharpening fans.

My point of this is, you need to make sure you have reached an apex during sharpening, the burr part, if you haven't done that you are just prolonging the torture you are inflicting on yourself. But, if you have reached the apex and removed the burr but find that the blade doesn't keep it's edge, it could be the type of metal and or the heat treatment was not optimal. I know some mfg. will intentionally keep the hardness lower to prevent chipping or breaking and back that reasoning up with 'it's easier for people to sharpen and maintain' well yeah, maybe lol but myself I like it to hold it's edge a little bit longer please. Some have heard the complaints and have bumped up their hardness in response and that's a good thing I think.
But those knives that you just can not get an edge on, and you've exhausted your entire expertise in sharpening, you may just want to stop, move on and don't sweat it, there are many knives that will sharpen up just fine.

So, probably more a rant I guess than information, but my take is, Never give up, Never surrender until you have truly gotten to that apex on both sides, it's important

G2

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I frequently think of an inexpensive paring knife I have, gifted to me by my partents many years ago when I'd moved away from home. Along those same lines of never giving up until you can prove the existence of a burr, and also likely relating to issues of either bad heat treat or heat damage, that particular knife tested my patience for months.

Every time I tried to set a decent edge on that knife, the 'burr' I created tended to immediately crumble into dust when I'd cut into something or when I would strop it off. After that crumbly 'burr' was gone, it was as if the edge immediately degraded to the type of blunting or rounding I'd expect to see from several weeks' worth of use without adequately keeping up with maintenance. It'd just go smooth at the edge, with no bite and no ability to cut paper or anything else. I'd resharpen it to that same conclusion time after time, with the same result: the burr would 'dissolve' right away, and then it was back to 'dull'.

After keeping after it with many resharpenings for months and just walking away from it for awhile in between resharpenings, I finally reground the edge back into something resembling decently strong & stable steel. All of a sudden, that new burr behaved like a burr should. It had some flip-floppy, ductile stubbornness of its own, as is typical of low-alloy stainless at moderate hardness. It was no longer dissolving into dust as I'd noticed before. So, I was finally able to properly deburr it into what resulted as a nicely thinned and reasonably stable edge for use in the kitchen - it suddenly became one of my favorite slicers for such use. It was as if the edge had been resurrected from what I'd previously assumed to be a lost cause.

So, I think in that case, I concluded it'd been heat-damaged by the factory edge-grinding process. It went WAY BEYOND the usual, in terms of how long it took to grind that damaged steel away. I'd seen weakened, damaged steel at the edge in other knives - but none of which produced that 'crumbling' effect at the edge and none that needed more than maybe two or three resharpenings to fix. And having stayed with it until it was finally 'fixed', that was one of the most valuable lessons I could've learned in sharpening, about patience and persistence.

 

[David Mary]

Obsessed with Edges interesting story. I can relate to half of it. A cheap paring knife in my mom's drawer. I found the exact same behavior of sharpening to what by all accounts would be a thin but reasonable edge for a properly heat treated steel, then instant dulling as soon as the burr was removed. I repeated the process a few times on diamond stones over the course of maybe half an hour and gave up. It was not worth giving up a whole visit to Mom's for the sake of sharpening a three dollar knife that nothing guaranteed would ever hold that edge.

 

[Another Shepherd]

I have a cheap Mossy Oak folder. I don't recall for sure what steel, but I'm thinking 3Cr. I can get the edge to BESS 300 and it will cut things without immediately getting dull, but when I try to get it sharper than that, the apex just crumbles. I spent about an hour on it once upon a time. Some day, when I get really bored, I'll try some more.

 

[JC972]

Hmm. Reading this gives me a renewed faith in one knife in particular. It was given to me by my Grandpaw when I was in college and I sharpened it. 3 blade Buck stockman. The sheepfoot blade just refused to get very sharp while the clip and Spey are like razors. This makes me think that maybe it has the same thing going on with it. Maybe another couple good sharpenings to get it down to good steel might just fix that problem. It’s been resigned into a knife roll since 2006 and hasn’t been carried since.

 

[Blues]

I recently finally chucked one of my wife's paring knives because it had a sub-par heat treat. It was obvious from all that Gary discussed above. That said, I waited years to throw that P.O.S. out regardless of knowing better.

Finally got that off my chest. LOL.

 

[Blade Lab]

In my experience, this also comes into play at the other end of the spectrum ... if you're an edge perfectionist. Specifically, I have the hardest time getting a hair-whittling edge on high vanadium stainless steels like s90v, s110v, and now 15v. It's no problem getting them *sharp*. BESS scores of 90-100 are easily attainable. But I'll be damned if I can get them much sharper than that, and that drives me kinda nuts. Eventually I may have to just say the hell with it and be happy with good enough, but in the meantime ... let me try this one more thing....

 

[Terry M.]

Gary W. Graley I don’t know if this was in response to my post on sharpening CPM 3V the other day or not but I sure wish I had your advice earlier. I was definitely not hitting apex even though I did the sharpie test and it was driving me nuts. This is excellent advice and seemingly simple advice but even a good reminder to those of us who have been sharpening for years. Thank you.

 

[Strauss95]

In my experience, this also comes into play at the other end of the spectrum ... if you're an edge perfectionist. Specifically, I have the hardest time getting a hair-whittling edge on high vanadium stainless steels like s90v, s110v, and now 15v. It's no problem getting them *sharp*. BESS scores of 90-100 are easily attainable. But I'll be damned if I can get them much sharper than that, and that drives me kinda nuts. Eventually I may have to just say the hell with it and be happy with good enough, but in the meantime ... let me try this one more thing....

I feel your pain! I have the EXACT same issue, struggling with the super steels more so than with simple carbon steels. But I've yet to score below 100, my best being 105 BESS so far. I'm typically in the 120-150 BESS range.

 

[Gary W. Graley]

Gary W. Graley I don’t know if this was in response to my post on sharpening CPM 3V the other day or not but I sure wish I had your advice earlier. I was definitely not hitting apex even though I did the sharpie test and it was driving me nuts. This is excellent advice and seemingly simple advice but even a good reminder to those of us who have been sharpening for years. Thank you.

No sir just a coincidence is all and I’m glad it gave you some ideas to work on!
G2

 

[Gary W. Graley]

One additional thought is I think that jumping grit level by too much can also cause trouble reaching your final edge, struggling if you jump up too soon
G2

 

[chalby]

I feel your pain! I have the EXACT same issue, struggling with the super steels more so than with simple carbon steels. But I've yet to score below 100, my best being 105 BESS so far. I'm typically in the 120-150 BESS range.

I don't know if this will help, but I find with high carbide steels the same principles apply, but more patience is required particularly in the finishing strokes. It does depend on the steel, but I have found that just working on the edge for longer generally gets me there. Avoid trying to increase the pressure on the stone and just double or triple the strokes(whatever is needed) that you would use on a simpler steel with normal, moderate pressure instead. Don't rush to get to the next stone in the progression.

The worst thing is when you start getting impatient and mess up your angle or start trying to bear down on the stone to speed up the process.

The last and most important part is to take your time and deburr properly. IMO, that will be the difference between good and great results.

 

[Strauss95]

I don't know if this will help, but I find with high carbide steels the same principles apply, but more patience is required particularly in the finishing strokes. It does depend on the steel, but I have found that just working on the edge for longer generally gets me there. Avoid trying to increase the pressure on the stone and just double or triple the strokes(whatever is needed) that you would use on a simpler steel with normal, moderate pressure instead. Don't rush to get to the next stone in the progression.

The worst thing is when you start getting impatient and mess up your angle or start trying to bear down on the stone to speed up the process.

The last and most important part is to take your time and deburr properly. IMO, that will be the difference between good and great results.

Thanks for the advice. I am diligent about keeping my pressure light, especially when working with diamond stones. De-burring is something I do struggle with freehand sharpening. When using my Edge Pro I have an easier time removing the burr on the last stone. Completely removing the burr, without changing my angle or rounding the apex, is the missing link to next level sharpness I believe.

I'm always practicing and trying to improve. I'm content with the sharpness levels I'm able to achieve now, but I am very aware I could be doing better.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I have owned quite a few knives like this.

Just won't get or stay sharp.

I had a Gerber hunting knife back in the early 1990's that just would not hold an edge for anything.

A "stainless" survival hollow handle knife that seemed like hard aluminum.

And a handfull of other knives from many makers over the years.

 

[chalby]

Thanks for the advice. I am diligent about keeping my pressure light, especially when working with diamond stones. De-burring is something I do struggle with freehand sharpening. When using my Edge Pro I have an easier time removing the burr on the last stone. Completely removing the burr, without changing my angle or rounding the apex, is the missing link to next level sharpness I believe.

I'm always practicing and trying to improve. I'm content with the sharpness levels I'm able to achieve now, but I am very aware I could be doing better.

We could all be getting better results. Sounds like you are doing fine.

 

[Gary W. Graley]

Tonight I have an older Case lockback that a friend sent in for sharpening, the edge bevels were super choppy and this will take a bit of time to even these out, here's a photo of the edge bevel after a short time on my stone

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

I asked if he had tried to sharpen it as it kind of looks like it had been pulled through one of those carbide V thingys but says it hasn't been touched in years.

G2

 

[Gary W. Graley]

After a bit of time on the sharpening stones, got it evened out and now fairly sharp, the blade is a little thick behind the edge but will cut much better now.

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

G2

 

[Strauss95]

Nice work Gary!

I always suspect the same thing as you when I see a rough, wavy edge bevel. 9 times out of 10 it's from a cheap pull through sharpener, I hate those things!!