10-hundred series, why not?

[OccamsRazor]

Hopefully this won't be viewed as a lame post.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, and I'm not trying to tell anyone their preferences are wrong. My intention is to learn something, so here goes:

Why is there so little use of 10-hundred (1084/1095) series steels in knives (especially custom)?

I don't like 1095/84 because I'm cheap, I don't mind paying custom prices for a custom knife. I've had 1095 knives for decades - they have never failed me, and I've never had any real rust problems (even in Germany in the Army). The arguments for other steels I've seen/heard are:

1) X steel has better edge retention than 1095.
-ok, I'll believe it. But unless I'm installing carpet all day, or working in a meat plant, I've never had a use for a knife that I felt 1095/84 had to be resharpened excessively.
2) Longer edge retention of X steel is better for camping trips/military/etc. I've always felt that going on maneuvers/camping without a portable stone for your knife is like carrying a weapon with only 3 bullets. So this argument doesn't work for me.
3) X steel will bend 40 degrees and support 300 lbs in a vice. -ok, I'll believe it. But since I've never used a knife as a mountain climbing piton, or for seperating an M1 turret from the hull, it doesn't matter to me.
4) X steel looks better. You got me there! Parkerized/moly coated/etc. 1095 will never win a beauty contest.
5) X steel is tougher, so you can have a thinner blade with the same toughness, and therefore better cutting performance. - this is the only argument that makes any sense to me, but again, it depends on what you want from the knife. My RunningDog Gambler is 1084, and with the 3/16 asymetric flat grind is a serious cutter. I guess if it was made of M2/D2/A2 it could be a prybar too, but that's not what I got it for...
6) X steel doesn't rust. - this is the one I really have a hard time with. I've never in 25 years had any real rust problems with 1095/84. I don't take great care of my knives (oil every once in a while, never owned tuff cloth or anything else). Even Texas humidity and Germany rain/snow have never caused big rust problems. In fact, the only knife I've ever had rust problems with is a 440C "stainless" knife!

I'm a big fan of Newt Livesay, and now RunningDog, 'cause they have great designs and use 1095 and 1084. So what gives? Is X steel (pick your fav) really that much better for common(and abusive) uses? Or does the American obsession with bigger/better make it too difficult to sell 1095/84 knives? I'd love to see more customs in my favorite 10xx series!!

(pls note I'm talking about "using" knives. Other steels have obvious advantadges when asthetics are important)

 

[Jeff Clark]

By the time that I pay for a custom I want some exceptional materials for the blade. It depends on the cost. I've got a rustic looking custom knife by Mork that cost $32.00. At that price L6 is a reasonable steel. Anything that cost over $50.00 I start looking for steel that will stay very sharp for longer than your basic alloy.

In a camp knife I'd be happy with 1084--cause I can always sharpen it. For my hunting knife I want it to stay razor sharp long enough to field dress a 500-1000 pound elk (even if I bone it out). I don't want to have to stop, clean my knife, and go shuffling through my pack while I'm covered with blood to dig out a hone. This makes D-2 and BG42 look like better blade materials.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 07-19-2000).]

 

[Samurai6]

Probably the biggest reason you don't see more handmade knives in simple carbon steels is that they rust easily. Collector's like their knives to be just as shiny in 20 years as the day they were made.

There are a lot of makers of working blades that employ 1000 series steels. I recently ordered a custom bowie, and the maker recommended 1084, so I said "cool".

 

[raker]

OccamsRazor, I use 1084, some 1095, a little 1070 (hay rake tines), 5160, and 52100. They will all rust if left to the elements and are not protected. I wear a Lil Blue neck knife in 52100 every day, sweating, working and using it. It hasn't rusted yet. I don't guess I leave it alone long enough to rust. The Kydex keeps the blade dry and the handle keeps moving I guess.
The number one reason that a lot of knife makers are using the X steels is that most of the customers will leave them in a drawer, damp coat pocket, tackle box, behind the truck seat, in the trunck of the car, etc. These are all places that will invite rust to deteriate the metal. When they make a knife, they want it to always look good, forever. That way a future customer can tell what a new one looks like. As a heat and hammer knife maker, the carbon steels always look good to me (just sometimes its better than others)

I have yet to figure out why the steel is so hard when your are hand finishing it and so soft when something touches it and leaves a mark.

------------------
Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker

 

[Gator97]

my .02$ would be

OccamsRazor:
1) X steel has better edge retention than 1095... - But unless I'm installing carpet all day, or working in a meat plant, I've never had a use for a knife that I felt 1095/84 had to be resharpened excessively.....

2) Longer edge retention of X steel is better for camping trips/military/etc.

come on, according to this & #2, the only people who need better edge retention are carpet installers

3) X steel will bend 40 degrees and support 300 lbs in a vice. ... But since I've never used a knife as a mountain climbing piton, or for seperating an M1 turret from the hull, it doesn't matter to me.

what if... I mean no one plans emergencies & accidents, so the things happen

. why not to have that advantage, just in case? if this is gonna help somehow. somewhere, sometimes... I don't want to be in the situation where I'd be hanging on the handle of my knife somewhere at 300 ft hight, of course I orefer not to be hanging in there at all

, but if this happens.

5) X steel is tougher, so you can have a thinner blade with the same toughness, and therefore better cutting performance. ...
My RunningDog Gambler is 1084, and with the 3/16 asymetric flat grind is a serious cutter. I guess if it was made of M2/D2/A2 it could be a prybar too, but that's not what I got it for...

better cutting performance - why prybar? with M2,D2,A2 (properly heat treated) you'd have a thinner blade that'd cut easyer & longer.

& Finally, it is the search for the best & better that drives things forward

------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 07-19-2000).]

 

[bart]

I loke my Don Fogg custom in 1084 just fine.

-Bart

 

[Loki]

More steel stuff. We've got all these steels and new ones seemingly every week. I'm sure that the latest X steel is better than say 1095. I'm just not sure how much better. I'd like to think that a properly executed knife in any of the proper steels will do the job with aplomb. My demands on a knife just aren't so extreme as to make 10xx steel not apply. Come to think of it the majority of my non-production knives are of O1. Granted you need to take some care in maintaining carbon steel and that may make a difference to collectors. Production companies are in the constant battle of bringing out the next latest and greatest product and steel bragging rights is part of the process.

 

[blademan 13]

I like 1095 just fine also. My experience with these is with my Grandfathers 85 yr. old Woodcraft (which while used and never babied survived just fine), a slew of Blackjacks (which I heard were nothing more than 1095) and an Ontario Spec Plus. I find the Blackjacks are very easy to sharpen to a very sharp edge, hold it for as long as I need them to and when wiped down with a Tuff-Cloth and stored in the sheath (I know, a definite no-no) have shown absolutely no signs of rust. The Ontario has seen enough rough use that I somehow feel sorry for it but it still is going strong. While definitely not at the top of the heap, it does have its place in the knife world. Some well known ABS smiths use this steel in their blades and I have never known anyone to complain about their quality.

 

[storyville]

I wouldn't sound the alarm on 10XX steels as a disappearing species.

Lots of custom makers (esp bladesmiths) use 1084 (most prefer it to 1095 for forging).

As for 1095: is it really "rare"? I'll bet more knives in 1095 are owned by forumites than in any other steel. It has seen wartime use far more than any other steel. By far, it was the most widely used steel in US knives in the "last century." Ontario, Camillus, and Ka-Bar all extensively use it.

Moreover, several makers who post in Shoptalk use 1095 (maybe not the bigmouths

). It's used as a primary material by Newt Livesay as well as by TOPS, and is offered as a standard option by Allen Blade. There are probably far more makers who used 1095 than those who do not.

(FWIW, for lower-priced, abundantly available steels, I think 5160 makes for a better blade than 1095).

At least those are my perceptions --

Glen

 

[Samurai6]

There are so many great stain resistant steel now that there isn't much purpose to using it on small knives. D-2 is just better. When it comes to bigger blades where you want the versatility of differential heat treatment, that's where 10XX still has an important place. Also in art blades where a pretty temper line is part of the package, whatever the size.

 

[tejas7]

Except for stain resistance, properly heat treated 1095 will hold an edge just as well as many of the popular stainless steels such as 440C, Ats34, etc....

A2 and D2 hold super edges but I would much rather have a differentially heat treated large blade in 1095 or 1084 in a knife that I need to depend on to be "tough".

As for the other "rusting" high carbon steels, 0-1 holds a super edge and 5160 is a great overall package. However, 1095 performs pretty closely to O-1 and 1084 is pretty close to 5160 in performance.

I have never heard of anyone winning a bowie knife cutting or chopping competition with a blade made of BG-42, D-2, 154cm, etc.....

The 10 series steels are great. Stainless steels certainly have there place but are over rated in my opinion due to the fact that many top makers use them (especially in folders)because thats what is wanted by the customer and this causes people to assume that that is the "best steel" available.

Just my opinion.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Thanks for the replies everybody! I really appreciate the sharing of knowledge here!!