1000 Years Ago

Boru13

Boru13

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I spend most of my time on M,T & E subforum just reading and learning ( never to old for that ) about all the different aspects of sharpening.

Sometimes i wonder if it just hasn't become a little to technical... grit or micron size, microbevel, removing the burr, angled sharpening systems, etc.

I think back to a 1000 years ago or so and wonder when men lived and died everyday whether by the sword, knife or axe and about the edges that they had on there weapons.

How do you think they sharpened them, what did they consider sharp, would it be sharp by todays standards ?

I have read where there have been archaeological digs at diffrent battle sites, Battle of Hastings for example, where remains have been uncovered that have had there legs, arms, etc. completely severed.

What kind of edge would be capable of that and still be able to function in the heat of battle ?

Would the edges that we put on knives today be able to survive that kind of treatment ?

Would we consider the edges that men put on there blades back then to be inferior to ours ?

Sorry if my thread seems a little weird or if my spelling is off but that is what a holiday weekend and some of Kentuckys finest whiskey will do for you :D
 
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Very good questions, I've considered them myself on many occasions. A lot comes down to the steel and heat treat. As for the specific grind and angles etc I don't think that changes much - an edge that does a good job of chopping is pretty much a constant. The European steel-crafters don't get the same acclaim as the Japanese smiths, but in fact and practice they were turning out very high quality steel, quite possibly equal to or in many cases better than all but the best handforged steel of our day. You also have to take into account the mass of the weapons they were using and how much armor the opponent was wearing - gear was not standardized - huge difference between chain mail reinforced plate and some boiled leather or multiple layers of rags and untreated leather.

I find it hard to believe we wouldn't be grimly satisfied with period edges if we could go back in time for a visit to an armory. Consider the Romans knew about Belgian coticule stone, so good quality grinding and polishing stones and abrasives were understood and probably somewhat common anywhere with trade connections by 1000 yrs ago (basically everywhere in an age when swords, spearheads, axe heads and arrowheads were the assault rifles and artillery of their day). Ultimately if you can polish steel, you can sharpen it to the same degree with a bit of adaptation, much as we can today. Good question, I don't know but enjoy speculating.
 
Stone age people, for 6000 years ago, had sharper edges then we have today. This because they use obsidian and flint tools. Obsidian edges can come down to 1 molecule in their edges. Their problem was that those edges were very fragile. There is the same problem with flint, but flint edges are thicker, if I remember correctly about 6 molecules.

To get those edges stronger they form their edges by make tem to thin “saws”. Later, they learn to grind their edges so that they also get smooth and the grinding also give them possibility to use different angles for better retention, this was for about 6000 years ago. They understood that edges shall be just as sharp as the edge needs to be – and the edge shall have a good retention so that they can work as long time as possible with their edged tool before it get dull.

Today I will say that most people try to get their edges as sharp as possible, best is that they shall be able to shave with the knife. An edge you can shave with is very fragile – and we are today where the stone age people was for about 6000 years ago….Retention of edges are more or less forgotten…

You can see grinded stone axes from the stone age. People think that they were grinded to be sharp. That is wrong, they was grinded to have a good retention, a wider angle, so that they hold for heavy work. You will also see that all edges during this time was convex.

Sharpening tools is not a modern thing; they are, at least, 1000 years old. Woodworking people understood that a flat edge work better in wood – and they understood that soft wood needs a low edge angle in about 19 degrees total edge – and that hard wood needs about 23 degrees total edge, so they made tools who give them those angles. Flat edges was hard to do, so flat edges was rare – but all woodworkers use them. All other edges was convex.

From early dark ages (12-1300) there drawings of sharpening tools in use. When the turning grinding stone come there is also drawings of how they was used to grind, for example swords. Now edges go from convex directly to hollow – the total upper sit form = the penetration skill was better.
In this time we also get our first flat stones. They was in soft material and they go concave fast – so convex edges was soon common again by ordinary people. Woodworkers grind their stones flat to get flat edges.

Heavy Handed is correct about early steel quality’s, they was in some case so hood that we can’t even produce them today – and we do not understand how they treat the steel. Very famous is a blacksmith from Innsbruck in south Germany, he made swords and amours in a way we can’t understand today. (I do not remember his name, sorry).

Here is some interesting links:

http://www.arador.com/construction/Basic-Armouring-4of4.pdf
http://www.garshin.ru/budo/_pdf/fencing/sword.pdf

Thomas
 
@EdgePal: you gave me lots of good information, many good points to think about, especially sharp vs "edge retention" when the tools are used on a day to day basis. Thanks, man.
 
ndh611, in my experience, an edge shall be as sharp its need to be for the edged tools function – with as good retention as possible = a knife edge can have two big faults, they can be too dull – and they can be to sharp. (The tool shall function for as long time as possible during hard work. I do not like to spend time sharpening the edge during the work).

To get an edge sharp is the simplest thing to do with an edge; everybody can get an edge sharp. To balance an edge so it is as sharp it need to be for the edged tools function with a good retention is much harder – and in my mind, there lays the skill of an experienced grinder.

Compare with shoes, you can by fancy ones who look very good but they do not fit your feet perfect – so you can’t use them for walking…

If your edge is so sharp that you can shave yourself with it, you have made a razor knife. Shave your half your face with it, then, whittle in wood for 5 minutes – and then try to shave the other half off your face…it will not work. This tells that the edge was first as sharp it needed to be for its purpose = good for shaving, and that if you use this edge for other things, it get to dull for its purpose – but it is still good for whittling.

All knifes, and other edged tools are designed to solve problems. That is why they look so different.

A metal cutting tools edges holds 90 degrees
An axe edge is in 45 degrees
A Knife edge holds 22 degrees
A razor knife holds 11 degrees.

Hair is softer then wood sliced along the fibers, an axe cuts across the fibers and steel is harder then wood. 90, 45, 22 and 11 degrees tell this story.

For a soldier who fights with an edged tool – the edge shall be as sharp it need to be for its purpose, not sharper than that – and the edge must hold its sharpness during the battle. IF the edge was to sharp – it gets dull very fast – and the soldier probably will be killed because of the bad function of his weapon. So, the soldiers was very interested in their weapons edges…

Fat makes the edge faster dull then meat. So, if the soldier was fighting a fat population, his edge will have higher retention. If he later fighting a population who was thinner, (not so much fat), he will make his edge sharper :D

Thomas
 
Nebulae said:
I wonder How did they shave?
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both romans and greeks had straight razors with a choice of either steel or bronze. not sure whether or not olive oil made a good shaving cream as depicted in the "Rome" mini-series. but, carol wojtila (pope john paul II) tried shaving with peanut butter and it worked.
 
I think most of you would be surprised att he edges of the old swords and axes. They didn't have sophisticated sharpening tools, but then sharpening a blade is not rocket science. Most Roman legionaries or crusading Knights probably had a smooth stone, and that got their tools 'sharp enough'. Ever cut yourself on a edge of a piece of sheet metal? You don't need umpteen micron razor edges, but you do need a toothy almost ragged edge to go through the leather, canvas, course weave clothing covering your enemy. A smooth rock will do that.

Most of the old swords where a lot thinner blade stock than hollyweird would have you think. Many years ago I had the great fortune to tour the British Museum in London. I was surprised how much lighter the old swords were built than I had thought. A thin flat ground sword with a wide blade will have enough mass to go right through tissue without a razor edge. At a Cuban pig roast I saw a file sharp machete chop right through the pigs neck, totally severing it from the body.

As knife knuts, we over obsess about edges.

Carl.
 
I think sharpening is 90% technique. And as they used their softer knives a lot more than most of us, they must have had a lot of practice and would become pretty good at it IMHO. They had natural whetstones and, at least in the my country (The Netherlands), they ofter used sharpening boards. Kind of like our strops but bigger and with fine sand on and in the wood. You can read more about that here.
 
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J D Wijbenga said:
I think sharpening is 90% technique. And as they used their softer knives a lot more than most of us, they must have had a lot of practice and would become pretty good at it IMHO. They had natural whetstones and, at least in the my country (The Netherlands), they ofter used sharpening boards. Kind of like our strops but bigger and with fine sand on and in the wood. (You can read more about that here.
Click to expand...

What a fabulous link! I just scanned it quickly, will go back and read it all carefully. I foresee some testing.
 
Amazing link!

Another method that is similar is to use a iron plate and abrasive powder such as silicon carbide. I know it by name as Kanaban.

As per the 1k ago, the only real difference is we are less skilled and have better steels. Though we may have better steels the heat treatment is a dying art as is the hand sharpening which completes the knife as a whole. Start taking away years of skill and replace it with a way to be lazy about the action and you lose skill and passion for the work being done.

A world of do it yourself is now one of do it for me and disposable items. Today its almost taboo to be skilled in a craft considered obsolete or one that could be done by a machine.
 
Jackknife, That pokes some holes in the thinking a polished edge cuts longer followers.
JD, Thank you for offering us the excellant link. A well researched, written and historical paper. I read it in its entirety and could not help thinking, we have not advanced much. Perhaps, in knowledge of heat treating and man made grits and new steels. But in the area of sharpening we've lost the art and knowledge that was held by our Great Grandfathers. Heck, I was barely old enough to remember meeting mine and to think his Father and Uncles fought in the Civil War, which we think was ages ago. DM
 
JD, Thank you for making this available for us to read. It contains great information. Thanks, DM
 
amazing link. so they used silt-sized metasediments that contained garnet. i've never heard of a sand board before.
 
JD, In part 2 of the link you posted, toward the end the author Bos in the chapter on stones. He says to stay away from Japanese Waterstones. I guess he did not care for them. DM
 
The first primates evolved 85 million years ago. Many species came and went. The modern human evolved 400 000 years ago and who knows how long we've been using obsidian?!
A human being was just as mentally competent 20 000 - 10 000 years ago as one is today. Evolution is slow. I'm sure they knew what they were doing when they were using edged tools back in the day.
We just know more about the specific microscopic science now, but it's still the same practical result. Obsidian is still used today (especially in eye surgery), because there is nothing sharper -- not even diamond,
although it is the hardest material known to man and it has better wear resistance; but it can't reach the same acute geometry as glass (or obsidian).
Sharp obsidian is about 1-2 molecules at the very edge; and, in layman's terms that means that it can cut cells smoothly in half, as opposed to the finest powder metal of today -- which will tear through them like a blunt, jagged saw.
 
If we only had blade steels grown from a single solid crystal :D
 
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