1084 and canola oil...

M

miden

Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
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Sorry to bring this subject up again but I am in a quandary because I want to try doing the HT on a 1084 blade and I have some Canola oil but after doing some research and finding some threads, all I have are doubts. I will give it a go of course but I see reputable people making very different statements here and I wonder.
Parks 50 is very expensive so you will understand why I had my heart set on good old Canola. I know that you cant always go cheap if you want good results, as stated in one thread by DevinT - I get it.
So I would like to ask some questions please. This isnt just about less expensive alternatives, there is also some science here. My blade in question is 1/8" thick, BTW
* What about hydraulic oil - that is pretty low viscosity?
* How about motor oil - are any of them good?
* When the blade enters the oil, a "pocket" of vapor forms around it so the blade should be moved around. My question is, do all quenching mediums behave the same in this respect?
* Is the thickness of the oil the only factor in how fast the steel cools. Comparing blades of the same geometry and thickness of course.
* Where can one acquire those pens for checking the heat of the steel?

Thank you in advance.

Mike

Q
 
Sure you can use canola oil, your steel just won't reach full hardness, which equals bad performance.
unfortunately it's not just about the viscosity, if you want best results you really need a quench specific oil.
You might have already seen, but you can get 1 gallon of Parks 50 from USA knife maker (https://usaknifemaker.com/park-s-50-quench-oil-1-or-5-gallon-container.html) which isn't terribly expensive.
There's also https://www.irondungeonforge.com/Du...nt-for-Parks-50-Priced-per-gallon-_p_140.html for slightly less $.
 
miden said:
Sorry to bring this subject up again but I am in a quandary because I want to try doing the HT on a 1084 blade and I have some Canola oil but after doing some research and finding some threads, all I have are doubts. I will give it a go of course but I see reputable people making very different statements here and I wonder.
Parks 50 is very expensive so you will understand why I had my heart set on good old Canola. I know that you cant always go cheap if you want good results, as stated in one thread by DevinT - I get it.
So I would like to ask some questions please. This isnt just about less expensive alternatives, there is also some science here. My blade in question is 1/8" thick, BTW
* What about hydraulic oil - that is pretty low viscosity?
* How about motor oil - are any of them good?
* When the blade enters the oil, a "pocket" of vapor forms around it so the blade should be moved around. My question is, do all quenching mediums behave the same in this respect?
* Is the thickness of the oil the only factor in how fast the steel cools. Comparing blades of the same geometry and thickness of course.
* Where can one acquire those pens for checking the heat of the steel?

Thank you in advance.

Mike

Q
Click to expand...
I don't have any experience or chemistry knowledge on hydraulic or used motor oil to offer a meaningful opinion. What I do know is that your engineered quench oils have additives that specifically address high thermal differential quenching. Additives like surfactants help to minimize vapor jacket formation and mitigate the effect to aid in creating more predictable and repeatable cooling curves.

The viscosity of the oil is not the only factor in how fast the steel cools. There are several factors, viscosity being one, additives being another, temperature of the oil (with respect to viscosity), and the physical and chemical properties of the steel being quenched.

If you are referring to Tempil Stiks, they are available on Amazon in just about any temperature you may want. They are around $15/each.
Fair warning: The high temp ones have caustic elements in them that can etch your blade where you apply them. I know this from using the 1450, 1500, and 1600 degree ones, plus reaching out to the manufacturer. Their answer was that the corroding elements are required to meet the melting points at those temperatures. Not the end of the world, just be aware and know that you may have a little extra finish work to do to buff the surfaces affected.

I would recommend getting a copy of "Knife Engineering" by Dr. Larrin Thomas. He also has several excellent Youtube videos that will answer your questions way better than I can here:


I hope this helps you out. IMO, there is nothing wrong with using canola oil when starting out making knives for yourself and giving some to friends, etc. If you plan on selling blades, or you just want to reliably achieve the best results for the steels you are using, canola isn't the best choice. YMMV.
 
miden said:
Sorry to bring this subject up again but I am in a quandary because I want to try doing the HT on a 1084 blade and I have some Canola oil but after doing some research and finding some threads, all I have are doubts. I will give it a go of course but I see reputable people making very different statements here and I wonder.
Parks 50 is very expensive so you will understand why I had my heart set on good old Canola. I know that you cant always go cheap if you want good results, as stated in one thread by DevinT - I get it.
So I would like to ask some questions please. This isnt just about less expensive alternatives, there is also some science here. My blade in question is 1/8" thick, BTW
* What about hydraulic oil - that is pretty low viscosity?
* How about motor oil - are any of them good?
* When the blade enters the oil, a "pocket" of vapor forms around it so the blade should be moved around. My question is, do all quenching mediums behave the same in this respect?
* Is the thickness of the oil the only factor in how fast the steel cools. Comparing blades of the same geometry and thickness of course.
* Where can one acquire those pens for checking the heat of the steel?

Thank you in advance.

Mike

Q
Click to expand...
You're wasting so much time and money trying to save money though
 
I will reinforce the words of the others. Buying a couple gallons of Parks #50 or similar fast oil is money well spent. It will last most knifemakers the rest of their lives if kept covered. It is the correct quenchant for most forging steels.

Now, as for "will canola work for 1084" - absolutely.
Heat the steel to around 1475°F/800°C and quench in at least two gallons of canola oil warmed to 120°F/60°C. It will reach full hardness.
Temper at 400-425°F/215-220°C for one hour twice. It will be around Rc61.

Canola should work fine for simple steels like 1070/1075/1084/5160/O-1.


1095, W1/W2, 52100, and higher alloy steels do better with Parks #50 or a similar fast quenchant.

Brine is a fast quenchant, but too severe for most people to use without breaking or cracking a lot of blades. The only reason to use it is for intense hamon activity on very pure mid carbon steel like tamahagane and very low Mn1075/1080/1074. If at all possible, you want between .1 and .3% Mn for a water/brine quench. At .4% you should switch to fast oil.
 
Thank you for the excellent and informative comments and advice Bunker Hill Blades, Buhlmann and Stacy. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to reply, I have a better understanding now. This subject is a total science on its own.
Thank you for too Deadboxhero for your comment, I understand what you are saying.

Thank you
 
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This got me thinking. Has anyone tried making their own quench oil? Or something like the polymer quenchants?

I already have quench oil (parks 50) so I'm not asking because I'm trying to save money or anything. Just purely out of curiosity, and also because I kinda like diy stuff in general.

I would bet it could be done, I just have no clue how.

Edit ( by making your own, I mean, finding additives to mix in an appropriate viscosity oil yourself. Or in the case of water, some way to make it cool a blade more gently)
 
There’s a recipe on the interwebs called “super quench”.

5 gal water
5lbs salt
32oz dish soap
7-8oz dishwasher rinse agent

Never used it, but you asked.
 
Bühlmann said:
There’s a recipe on the interwebs called “super quench”.

5 gal water
5lbs salt
32oz dish soap
7-8oz dishwasher rinse agent

Never used it, but you asked.
Click to expand...
I've heard of that one, I believe that actually is supposed to lead to a quicker quench speed. At least from what I recall, it's supposed to help eliminate the vapor jacket formed when doing a water quench, or at least reduce it.

I've never tried it either, so idk how well it works.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Now, as for "will canola work for 1084" - absolutely.
Heat the steel to around 1475°F/800°C and quench in at least two gallons of canola oil warmed to 120°F/60°C. It will reach full hardness.
Temper at 400-425°F/215-220°C for one hour twice. It will be around Rc61.

Canola should work fine for simple steels like 1070/1075/1084/5160/O-1.


1095, W1/W2, 52100, and higher alloy steels do better with Parks #50 or a similar fast quenchant.
Click to expand...
Stacy has summed it up nicely. YES, canola oil at 120°F will work for 1084, but not so well for 1095. I've used it lots with good success, but now use Parks 50.

On the super Quench - works great for what it's designed for, railroad spikes, or other steels in the .20% to .40% range.
 
Ken H> said:
Stacy has summed it up nicely. YES, canola oil at 120°F will work for 1084, but not so well for 1095. I've used it lots with good success, but now use Parks 50.

On the super Quench - works great for what it's designed for, railroad spikes, or other steels in the .20% to .40% range.
Click to expand...
I seen a YouTube video by knife steel nerds:
That claims Canola oil doesn't harden the 1084 steel in the center past 42Hc
water does but I'm not sure of the process to do water then canola or if you use distilled or tap?

Has anyone cut the blade in half and tested the hardness using Canola oil vs Parks vs water?
And how much does the center hardness matter?

Also what do you all use to rust protect 1080 steel blades, are there any affordable strong coatings, I've heard of DLC but have no clue how to do it, or Titanium Carbo Nitride
 
See reply on your duplicate post about quenching.
Coatings are on the surface and will be removed by wear and sharpening. Proper care, cleaning, and oiling are how to keep rust off knives. Etching in FC and neutralizing then oiling is probably the best way.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
See reply on your duplicate post about quenching.
Coatings are on the surface and will be removed by wear and sharpening. Proper care, cleaning, and oiling are how to keep rust off knives. Etching in FC and neutralizing then oiling is probably the best way.
Click to expand...
Have you ever done the Titanium Carbon Nitride Coating that makes it 70HRc or the PVD Diamond Like Coating that I've seen many knife makers on YouTube rave about stating it brings the edge up to 70-80 hardness without being brittle and prevents scratches for years? Because I'd be willing to recoat it

Like I said before I'm new to knife making just done a bit of metallurgy for making industrial parts on semi's hydrolic gates.
 
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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
See reply on your duplicate post about quenching.
Coatings are on the surface and will be removed by wear and sharpening. Proper care, cleaning, and oiling are how to keep rust off knives. Etching in FC and neutralizing then oiling is probably the best way.
Click to expand...
Mr. Apelt,

Could you elaborate on the process of etching with FC, neutralizing and then oiling? Also, could/should or should not that process be used on a kitchen knife, for instance?
 
MadeFromMetal said:
Have you ever done the Titanium Carbon Nitride Coating that makes it 70HRc or the PVD Diamond Like Coating that I've seen many knife makers on YouTube rave about stating it brings the edge up to 70-80 hardness without being brittle and prevents scratches for years? Because I'd be willing to recoat it

Like I said before I'm new to knife making just done a bit of metallurgy for making industrial parts on semi's hydrolic gates.
Click to expand...
That might be the hardness of the coating, but it does not affect the hardness of the edge, or the steel, in any way at all. It's just sort of a paint, if you will, that coats the blade to prevent scratches, glare, etc.

Retired Spook said:
Mr. Apelt,

Could you elaborate on the process of etching with FC, neutralizing and then oiling? Also, could/should or should not that process be used on a kitchen knife, for instance?
Click to expand...
There are quite a few tutorials on this site and YT that explain the process. I just ordered FC for the first time and went to YT to see how it's done. Pretty straightforward. A lot faster than the lemon/vinegar etching I've done in the past, that's for sure.
 
What kept grandpa's old dark pocketknife blade and grandma's gunmetal grey kitchen knives from rusting was the patina on them ... and proper care.

Patina is the oxides that form on the surface. There is more than one kind of iron oxide. Fe3O4 is black iron oxide. We call it patina. The patina helps protects the blade from the other iron oxide - Fe2O3 ... we call that rust. Patina forms slowly and gets "richer" over time. It is a very thin (only a few millionths of an inch) layer and can wear away with sharpening and polishing. In the old days factory knife blades were soaked in tanks of all sorts of chemicals to speed up patina before being assembled and sharpened. You bought them with a dark patina, not shiny and polished like today. Houses had no climate control, and humidity was higher inside than outside. But those old kitchen knives just kept on going for 50-75-100 years with little or no rust if use regularly.

Proper Care - Those old carbon steel knives were cleaned off after use, dried, and regularly oiled. They were often hung in the air or kept in knife blocks that allowed air to flow around the blade. Grandpa may have used any oil in the shop ... even old motor oil ... and grandma used cooking oils.
I remember many a garage, barn, or workshop with a "sand-n-oil" box by the door. It was a metal or wooden crate filled with fine sand and the used motor oil was dumped in it. Garden tools and even knives were plunged in and out of the sand to scrub them clean and leave a coat of oil on the steel before putting the tool away.

Ferric chloride is used by knifemakers to etch damascus and to darken the blade surface on mono-steel knives. It forms a patina on steel very rapidly. The patina formed by FC isn't the exact same as what forms by time and use, but it is similar. It shields the blade from oxidation by covering the surface with a layer of already oxidized steel. Other chemical treatments like Parkerizing and bluing also form a patina. They are more involved and more dangerous than a simple FC tank.

When you use FC to etch a blade it gets into every pore, micro-crack, and microscopic crevice on the blade. Just washing the blade off may not remove all the FC. Left there to continue its chemical process, it can create pits, rust spots, and corrosion. It will also get up under a bolster or guard and come back to haunt you later if you don't remove it.

Cleaning and Neutralizing - After etching a blade, you should wash it well with soap and hot water. Then use a chemical that will reverse any acidity. Windex, ammonia, TSP, or baking soda are the most common neutralizers. Many folks boil an etched damascus blade for an hour in a baking soda water bath to be sure that there isn't some in a tiny weld line.

Then the blade needs to be completely dried to remove all water. Most of the time sitting out in a warm room overnight will do it, but an hour in a 250°F oven is not a bad idea.

Next, you need to protect the surface and those tiny cracks and crevices in the blade from future moisture being attracted to the steel. A good blade oil that has surface coating properties is what works best here. WD-40 is common, but not the best choice by far. Commerical knife and gun oils are formulated to stick to the steel as well as repel water. Any light penetrating oil, like 3-in-1 or sewing machine oil will also work. Motor oil is made to lubricate and not a particularly good surface protector. Applying the oil immediately after the drying while still warm is a very good practice.

Food Safety - The patinated surface is safe to use on food once the blade is cleaned. It is just an oxide. On food blades be sure to use food grade oils to oil the blade. I would hate to get the taste of "Ballistol" on a good steak.

Commercial coatings on blades - There are painted and baked coatings like Cerakote and its cousins. There is Nitriding and even PVD. None of these are a permanent solution and none will make the edge harder permanently. Most will scratch. PVD and nitriding are pretty darn expensive, too. Cerakote is simpler, but you need the curing oven and the spray. While commercial knife companies that make millions of knives might do these things, they are more a sales gimmick that something that makes a knife better. Hobby makers and small-batch production knife makers rarely do any of these things.
 
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Stuart Davenport Knives said:
That might be the hardness of the coating, but it does not affect the hardness of the edge, or the steel, in any way at all. It's just sort of a paint, if you will, that coats the blade to prevent scratches, glare, etc.
Click to expand...
The videos I was seeing was of the DLC coating, that was like metallurgy more so than paint, and they did hrc tests with expensive industrial machines and it was raising the actual outside hardness quite a bit.

For example they compared Cerakote to DLC and used a 64HRC blade that was Razor sharp to cut on the coatings of both types. The Cerakote cut off easily and the DLC coating didn't scratch at all but instead shaved off the edge of the knife trying to scratch it. It made shaving marks on the DLC knife blade but wiped off with cloth or thumb.
So if I understand it correctly now, it's a SVD thin coating that is done in a expensive machine that creates a strong vacuum and bombards the blade with ions until the blade is negatively charged like a magnet and then insert Carbo-Nitride and Titanium Nitride inside the top layer of the blade like metallurgy not a powder coat that's baked on. There was a few other exotic high strength chromium's/Nitrides that I don't remember that was involved with the DLC coatings.

I don't know exactly how the Titanium Carbon Nitride Coating but I know it's also a SVD type of coat meaning very thin layer. But I don't think that type increases the blades outer hardness.

I've obviously never done it. But recently found from SVD DLC industry videos that it has to be done 3rd party and it's not something you can't do at home.

This is what was shown in comparison videos on many blade smithing and DLC industry company channels. I've obviously no experience using it but a few friends who forge different tools, one of them being in industrial diesel engines claim it does make the surface harder, and claim that it even protects against some mild wear of mid grade files around 58-64Hrc.
 
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