1084 and temper lines

I just finished a little keyxhain knife for myself. It's 1/8" 1084 with a Scythe Grind edge and an OAL of 3", maybe. I used maroon linen Micarta for the handle and use a lanyard to serve as a handle extension. Concealex sheath, of course. I oil quenched the steel and tempered at 400 degrees for 30 minutes. If I leave it alone will the temper line eventually show itself? I can never seem to get much of a line to develop using ferric chloride, but I figured the natural patina may make it show itself. Whaddya think? No digital cam, so no photos, unfortunately. I'm pretty proud of this little sucker, though!

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Steve Agocs, D.C.
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/frames.html


chiro75@yahoo
 
Running Dog

Running Dog

Joined
Sep 17, 1999
Messages
347

Chiro75...

You should ask Ed Caffery...The 1084 knives on his site show a dramatic temper line...I was going to ask him myself...Maybe you could find out and post for all our edification...

How's it going BTW, haven't talked to you for a while...

Running Dog

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Running Dog Knife Company
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runningdog@dog.com</A>
www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com
 
Actually it's pretty easy........you can achieve a very distinct temper line on just about any oil quench steel by simply edge quenching (about 1/3 the blade width)then finish as you normally would except....... where every you stop on your grinding (400-600 is where I stop), go back and hand sand,(length wise on the blade) with 400, clean the blade well, then etch the blade in ferric chloride (3 parts water to 1 part ferric). When etching, it's very important that you get ALL the scratches out. The etch will make a 220 grit scratch look like a 36 grit scratch.
I try to keep the etchant around 70-90F and etch for about 20 min. Nuetralize in TSP, then scrub the blade with #0000 steel wool. After that I clean it with acetone, then apply a good coat of caranuba wax. The etch is what really brings the temper line out. It's a bit more hand work, but it will give you real nice temper lines.
I would recommend when tempering any blade or 10XX to go 2 hours, with only a 30 min temper it's likely that your not getting full tranformation in the matrix. This may cause hard and soft spots within the blade.

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Ed Caffrey "The Montana Bladesmith"
ABS Mastersmith
www.caffreyknives.com
 

Thanks Ed for the reply...You gotta' love this place...

Additional questions...Can you get this temper line with a fully quenched knife? Do you ever use clay for this purpose?

How do you heat treat your 1084/15n20 Damascus? (that's a wonderfull dagger on your site BTW)

Do you ever create a hamon on your damascus?

I'm so nosey...
smile.gif


Thanks,
Running Dog

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Running Dog Knife Company
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mmurphy@premier1.net">
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mmurphy@premier1.net</A> [url="http://www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com"]www.runningdogknife.bigstep.com[/url]
 
Temper lines will be much lighter when using clay, and you won't see them at all on fully hardened blades. The temper line that shows up is the boundary zone of the blades crystaline structure, where it goes from hard at the edge, to softer in the middle/spine area.
I almost always fully harden my damascus blades. If you edge quench damascus, you get a strong temper line that can sometimes look OK, but more often than not it looks terrible. That's the trade off, durability for looks, or if you edge harden, you trade looks for durability. The damascus is still very durable, but not as much as an edge hardened piece would be.
The 15n20/1084 gets only a single quench, and then a triple temper at 412F.



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Ed Caffrey "The Montana Bladesmith"
ABS Mastersmith
www.caffreyknives.com
 
Running Dog, things are going well. I have been super busy moving, working, and trying to start my own practice, so that doesn't leave a whole lot of time for BFC. Ed, thanks for the tips. I made a second little keychain knife last night and it is sitting in ferric chloride as we speak. I don't know how dilute. Despite having a BA in chemistry, I just poured a bit into a glass of water. Smart, huh?
wink.gif
This knife took longer because I ground both sides (no easy feat with a file) instead of a chsiel grind. Because of that I left it as an "integral" ala Sean Perkins so I didn't have to spend time putting scales on it. On a related note, I was out of suitable oil for quenching a few weeks ago and I tried to quench a 1084 blade in water and it cracked. I also had a sharpened edge instead of leaving it slightly thick. Was it the water or the edge that caused the crack? I still have the knife, and I didn't temper it, so I guess it'll keep a good edge until it breaks!
wink.gif


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Steve Agocs, D.C.
http://www.geocities.com/Chiro75frames.html


agocs_s@hotmail.com
 
It was the water. It cooled the steel so quickly that the exterior contracted faster than the interior of the steel, sorta like trying to strech a balloon over a basketball.....somethings gotta give.

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Ed Caffrey "The Montana Bladesmith"
ABS Mastersmith
www.caffreyknives.com
 
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