1084FG/5160 Stainless Equivalent

M

MilliePop

Joined
Aug 21, 2008
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The vast majority of replies I previously received had recommended 1084FG/5160 steel for a campknife because it is "forgiving" to the forger, very tough which is necessary for a campknife, widely available in bar stock, with acceptable edge retention and strength.

Now I would like to offer the same knife in a stainless variant. I would like to know if there is a stainless steel with similar attributes to those mentioned above. Price not an Issue. And please include whether to or how you would differentially heat and/or temper the knife.

Any advice, recommendation and input is welcomed and much appreciated.

Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays.
 
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For a camp knife the toughness is your main concern, therefore the 5160 is a good selection (a little better corrosion resistance due to chromium also). But if you want to have a stainless steel on your camp knife you will find the toughness is reduced no matter which steel you choose. You can compromise that by having your blade thicker, making your grind convex and having a decent fuller (to increase the flexibility) and also keeping the hardness at lower RC's, lets say 57-58.

The PM grade steels are tougher than their non-PM counterparts. For example the CPMD2 is better for a camp knife than regular D2... As far as I know, any PM stainless would do OK for camp knives. I have seen some s30V and CPM154 camp knives around, there are also VG10 and RWL32 samples around. I made a D2 camp knife, this steel is brittle so I kept the RC at 57 and didn't cryotreat it. To leave the retained austenite in the steel really makes the blade tougher but you compromise the wear resistance a bit. Found a comparison on toughness of some stainless steels here.

For heat treating you should have 3 things in hand.
1: the knowledge of steel HT procedures
2: a temperature controlled kiln and stainless foil.
3: great deal of patience to sand after the HT :D:rolleyes:

As for differential HT for these steels. Any martensitic stainless steel is deep - air hardening, I'm afraid you won't be able to put a temper line on these steels. And any attempt to make differential tempering will ruin the HT IMHO....
 
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There are very few who forge stainless steel, it's tough stuff ! For use I have a Kukri of 440B -works well no problems , a Cold Steel Master Hunter in AUS-8 - excellent knife, easy to sharpen ,holds edge well. CPM154 would work and others too.You'd have to adjust temper to suit your needs .Forget about differential temper.
 
There is a big difference between knife making in carbon steels and knife making one in stainless steels. The temperatures involved in HT and the procedure are usually left to the experts ,like Paul Bos. You will have to have a controlled HT oven to do it yourself.

Forging stainless steel is not recommended. Forging CPM steels is foolish. Forging the exotic super steels will ruin them.

The sanding and grinding is more difficult when using stainless steels. Some won't take a high polish, and need to be left as a matte finish.

CPM steels are the way to go in stainless blades.
Use a readily available stainless that has been used a lot by others - CPM-154 is probably the most used and best all around stainless steel for a tough user like a camp knife ( it is what I use, when the knife must be stainless).

Other choices would be CPM-D2, S30V,and plain old 440-B/C.

Forget the super steels for a camp knife. Cowry X and Cowry Y, S90V, S120V, VG-10, ZDP 189..... are all fantastic steels, but not made for a big camp knife. Cowry Y is the only one that might work, and it would cost about $200 for a piece big enough to make a camp knife.

Make a bunch in carbon steel first ,anyway. You will want to learn the process and procedures well before adventuring into stainless and exotic steels.

When you said you wanted to offer the same knife in a stainless variant, are you now making knives for sale? I thought you were just getting started?

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
When you said you wanted to offer the same knife in a stainless variant, are you now making knives for sale? I thought you were just getting started?

Stacy
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No, I just did't want people to think I was a newb. But yeah...if and when I ever start to sell, the vast majority of people I will be marketing to will be using the knife for all purposes including believe it or not...a kitchen knife. So the thought of using stainless just entered my mind since other makers of the same knife design doesn't offer stainless and to be honest the ones making them these days are not of the same quality in all aspects.
 
"1084FG/5160 Stainless Equivalent"

There is none! Two completely different animals, the same way an apple will never tast like an orange.
 
I just did't want people to think I was a newb
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come on now,,, If you ARE a NOOB, You ARE a NOOB! It won't do you any good to try and fool people on that one. In fact, it would reflect poorly on the whole Bladesmith community, so for all of those who may be affected by your actions, be what you are at this point in your journey.
Keep asking questions though,, that does suit you now!

jm
 
MilliePop said:
No, I just did't want people to think I was a newb. But yeah...if and when I ever start to sell, the vast majority of people I will be marketing to will be using the knife for all purposes including believe it or not...a kitchen knife. So the thought of using stainless just entered my mind since other makers of the same knife design doesn't offer stainless and to be honest the ones making them these days are not of the same quality in all aspects.
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I thought the same thing. Then two of my first three (kitchen knife) orders requested non stainless and the third didn't care :confused: Maybe the folks who actually want custom knives are more likely to believe that non-stainless is better than stainless?
 
Thanks Jim. You stated it very well.

Many of us ask how to get started making knives and for help with hints and tips on specifics as we gather enough understanding to know what to ask. For some of us, I believe we project ourselves too far out into the future too fast. In our imagination we're already making fine knives and finding them fine homes with fine folks. For some of us this is a very important and positive thing. We need that kind of picture to draw us into our will forces and sustain us through our many fledgling, yet seemingly nearly Herculean, efforts to develop our craft.

Unfortunately there's often a flip side to this though. Some of us botch up keeping the imagination, the goal, separate from the present actuality. It almost doesn't seem like an untruth to tweak little facts or skew them with an extra positive twist. After all, they are true, or should I say, will be true someday. The other challenge for some starter-uppers is we already imagine our future customers aware of us and our postings and we don't want to sabotage potential possible future sales by looking like unskilled novices.

We soon find out, though, that in the realm of the handcrafted knife, smoke and mirrors just do not cut it in the least. Materials must be genuine, fit solidly and perform as intended with integrity. Fine quality craftsmanship is one aspect we need to develop. Knowledge of materials, techniques, usage, marketing, business management, etc are others.

I believe when new makers ask, "what do I need to become a knife maker?," the answer should probably go past the usual dialog about steels, shops and skills. Yes skills, knowledge, tools and a workplace are of course paramount. But so too are integrity, perseverance, patience, humility, confidence, trust and consideration of others. Ok I know it might sound a bit like a boy scout list of virtues, but what the hey, if the shoe fits....

All the best, Phil
 
Farmer Phil said:
I believe when new makers ask, "what do I need to become a knife maker?," the answer should probably go past the usual dialog about steels, shops and skills. Yes skills, knowledge, tools and a workplace are of course paramount. But so too are integrity, perseverance, patience, humility, confidence, trust and consideration of others. Ok I know it might sound a bit like a boy scout list of virtues, but what the hey, if the shoe fits....

All the best, Phil
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Not a thing wrong with the Boy Scout analogy.


Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.


A Scout is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent

I can find no fault with these words, as a knife maker,as a businessman, or just as a person.
 
There aren't any stainless steels that are forgiving and/or easy to forge.
 
MilliePop said:
No, I just did't want people to think I was a newb. But yeah...if and when I ever start to sell, the vast majority of people I will be marketing to will be using the knife for all purposes including believe it or not...a kitchen knife. So the thought of using stainless just entered my mind since other makers of the same knife design doesn't offer stainless and to be honest the ones making them these days are not of the same quality in all aspects.
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I debated on whether or not to get into this discussion, obviously I have decided to join in tilting at windmills.

MP, there's nothing wrong with being a noob, we all were at some point. If you're going to offer chef's knives be forewarned that most professional chef's know a lot about knives just like a cabinet maker knows about power tools. Most chef's knives ARE forged carbon steel.

Not same quality in all aspects.... all aspect of what? fit and finish? edge retention? handle material? You're asking basic beginner questions about steel choices but you're going to change the world in blade design? I know I sound harsh and rest assured that I'll be the first to compliment you if you prove me wrong but please learn the basics of knifemaking before you rush off and destroy your reputation and the reputation of custom knifemakers with poorly made knives.

Best of luck.
 
Will Leavitt said:
Not same quality in all aspects.... all aspect of what? fit and finish? edge retention? handle material? You're asking basic beginner questions about steel choices but you're going to change the world in blade design? I know I sound harsh and rest assured that I'll be the first to compliment you if you prove me wrong but please learn the basics of knifemaking before you rush off and destroy your reputation and the reputation of custom knifemakers with poorly made knives.
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With all due respect...I may be a beginner but it wouldn't take an expert to see the poor quality of the knives I am referring to being made now. I would post some pictures if I felt it'll make a difference but I don't think it will. Just to clear things up it is not my design. It is a ancient design kind of like a bowie or a kukri is so I wouldn't be revolutionizing the blade industry. I don't know where and when I said that but I must have gave that impression and I apologize. And if I produce poorly made knives I don't think it would destroy the reputation of any fellow maker but myself since it will be my and only my name on the knife.
 
MP, sorry if I came across as an asshole. I don't mean to seem like one even though I come across as one at times.

I've been where you are, read the "knifemaking lifestyle" thread if you want to see how it went.

I tried to private message you but you don't allow it.

If I can help feel free to contact me via email. will46r at yahoo.com
 
Millepop,
I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that you first posted that you were looking for information on learning, then posted on having a knife made, then (when I offered to try and hook you up with a local maker to help you out) you said you weren't interested. Now you are talking about taking orders and offering different styles and materials. You can see where the confusion comes from.

I think you are eager to learn, but have a lot of reading and practice to do yet. I really recommend reading several books on the subject to everyone who wants to learn about knife making. The standard recommendations are in the stickies.

Keep at it and read up. We will all be here to help with questions that are part of learning.
Stacy
 
Jimmy (MilliePop),

Wow, this is getting complex. From more questions about steel, to perceived ambiguity as to "place" in the custom knife making field, to confusion of the tone of typewritten voices and forum etiquette. Never a dull moment. Just for the record, you don't strike me as the kind of guy who rushes off before learning the basics, as demonstrated by your lines of research and inquiry on this forum.

As to the question about an individual's successes and/or failures also representing a groups, I agree with Will and others in that they do. For instance, I am a high school teacher. If I mistreat one of my students it not only reflects on me as a teacher, it also reflects on the school I teach for. In other words public opinion will not restrict itself to just me. It isn't necessarily fair. It's just the social nature of being human. There's ALWAYS a context.

As a young fella of 26, you are sure taking an interesting (and I mean that genuinely) approach into exploring the custom knife making arena. I've followed most of your threads, including Stacy's (Bladsmth's) on your behalf. I've learned a great deal in the dialogs that ensued from your questions. The folks here are the real deal when it comes to sharing, that's for sure.

Anyway, it took me a while to realize, that at this point, you are probably not making knives at all in any manner what-so-ever, and that's cool. Typically, drawing such a conclusion about a fellow forumite isn't so cloaked in mystery. In fact, in my naivete, I even asked you questions on how to do things, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577975 (posts # 5 & 7). Funny that. But hey, other folks spoke up (in that case JS Carter and Chewbacca) and I learned a lot.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is...awe hell, I don't know what the the point I'm trying to make is. :o

You seem to have a passion for certain style knives in the camper survivalist traditions. Through that doorway, if you will, you have embarked on an interesting research and fact gathering journey. That's cool, but is that really being a beginner knife maker? Perhaps, but to my way of thinking it's not quite the same.

When you take some of that steel Stacy sent you and draw an outline on it and/or pound, cut, file, grind or sand it, heat treat it (or farm it out), set it in a handle and sharpen the sucker...you are a beginner. Until then your a researcher, and like I said, that's cool. More than cool, its great. It just helps me to know what the context of our dialoging is that's all. Not knowing, or worse yet, mis-knowing leaves me with an unsettled confused feeling (and I do that enough as it is). :D Of course I may be completely off the mark here. It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last I guess.

Anyway, please forgive me for being so personal in a public forum. And...keep up the cool research!

All the best, Phil
 
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