110/112 Lock Up Expectations?

TAH

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Jul 3, 2001
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Frequently, I hear complaints about the lock up on the 110 and 112 developing blade play. Seems like this happens more on the newer models and most of the time, it is just a small amount of play, usually side to side, but sometimes up and down.

Questions:

1) Is it unfair to expect absolutely no play with this lock design?
2) Is it unreasonable to send these knives back to Buck every time they develop a little play?
3) When the 110 was invented in the 60s, was "no blade play" even a thought or goal?
4) Are some users expecting too much because they’re comparing the 110/112 lock performance to more modern locks that were intentionally designed to reduce blade play possibility?

My 110 and 112 were made in the 70s and do not have any blade play at this time, but if they do develop a little play in the future, I don’t think it would bother me or should it?
 
You're comparing two different eras, with the same knife. When the model first came out craftsman used the heck out of them. Taking them to the limit and they survived. Today guys do the same only non-work related. Just in their back yard. To see how the knife will hold up. Then if it develops the least wiggle they complain. WELL, why did you do it? Whereas the craftsman (carpenter, plumber, mechanic, ect.) of the 70's will respond. 'Wiggle, yep it has some but look what I put it thru?' A much different mindset. Buck could put a screw in the blade pivot without much hassle or cost. Which would make it stronger. Would this fix the guys who go out and brutalize them? I doubt it. DM
 
I've never experience a problem with any of the 110s I've had over the years, whether traditional brass/wood or synthetic grips. They've all locked up solid and never developed a wobble. That said, I only use them for cutting stuff, not prying or batonning.
 
I've never experience a problem with any of the 110s I've had over the years, whether traditional brass/wood or synthetic grips. They've all locked up solid and never developed a wobble. That said, I only use them for cutting stuff, not prying or batonning.


I've also never had an issue with blade play on my 110 though I've only had it about 3 years. Buck has an excellent reputation for customer service and I believe I've heard of people sending knives in for blade play which could solve any potential issues you might have.
 
You're comparing two different eras, with the same knife. When the model first came out craftsman used the heck out of them. Taking them to the limit and they survived. Today guys do the same only non-work related. Just in their back yard. To see how the knife will hold up. Then if it develops the least wiggle they complain. WELL, why did you do it? Whereas the craftsman (carpenter, plumber, mechanic, ect.) of the 70's will respond. 'Wiggle, yep it has some but look what I put it thru?' A much different mindset. Buck could put a screw in the blade pivot without much hassle or cost. Which would make it stronger. Would this fix the guys who go out and brutalize them? I doubt it. DM
I would love to see a fun design like Bob Dozier's tab lock stuck in a 110!
 
IMO, vertical play and wobble are entirely different animals.

Blade wobble, for me, is most often associated with peened pivot traditionals regardless of whether they are slip joints or lock backs. There's simply a limit to the amount of lateral stress this design can sustain without developing wobble. Wobble doesn't matter too much to me because it is so easily fixed with a padded vice. Heck... I've even taken the wobble out of several Swinden key knives. I just clamp 'em down with enough force that I'll either fix it or just bust it to pieces.

Vertical play is a reality with every traditional lock back that I've used, no matter what brand. As I understand the phenomena, there are 2 technical issues. The first and most obvious is the stability of the blade pivot pin and the lock bar pivot pin, both of which see significant forces under hard cutting. Several knife mechanics (I'm *NOT* one) have told me that their standard fix for vertical play is to replace these pivots. The worst knives I've owned in this regard were two Bucklite Max folders, both of which developed significant vertical play in less than a year. I sent them to Joe Houser and he confirmed to me in email that the plastic liner-less designs are simply weaker in this regard, as the frame material opens up allowing the pivots to move. The other Buck that was really bad in this regard was a Walmart Spitfire (I forget the exact model name). The pivot assembly visibly moved in the frame. That appeared to me to be a production QC problem with tolerances and I hope Buck works the kinks out, as I sort of like that knife.

The second and less obvious issue with vertical play is what happens at the blade tang/lock bar interface. To allow the lock bar to move into position, typically this interface has a slight angle. Under hard cutting pressure, the blade tang literally forces the lock bar up. You can feel this on most lock backs if you keep your thumb on the lockbar under hard cutting. IMO, this sort of "lock rock" is inherent with the lock back design but some are better or worse than others in this regard.

IMO, there is a real safety issue. I've heard many reports of people having lock backs accidentally closing on them when using the knife to cut limbs or tough rope. In all the reports that I've heard or read, the failure mode is the same. The user was cutting with an extreme amount of force and when the blade finally cut through the material, the blade snapped shut on their hand on the sudden follow through.

My understanding of this failure mode is that the hard cutting force lifts up the lock bar enough that the lock bar pawl no longer is in position to catch the blade. Then, when the blade breaks through the material suddenly, it snaps forward like a sling-shot and does so faster than the spring of the lock bar can recover.

I think the lock back design is fine for EDC and hunting uses. I don't think it's the best for applications (like brush cutting) that create this sort of hard cut & release scenario. If I'm clearing brush, I'll reach for an Opinel over any lock back, as the Opinel's lock ring design is pretty much impervious to developing vertical (or horizontal) play. (It has other weaknesses though, which is why I prefer a lock back for hunting.)

As much as I dislike Cold Steel (really, they make WWE look civilized), the Triad lock design fixes a real design weakness in the lock back design.
 
I've got some side to side on a couple of my 110s and 112s. At first I thought it would be a big problem, but it never got past a certain point so I can live with it. Eventually I would like to get both models from the custom shop and I really hope it doesn't happen with those...
 
Over the years, I have read several cases where someone's 110 developed a small amount of play after using the knife in a non-abusive manner and the owners were disappointed. Is their disappointment justified? As most of you know, I am a devoted 110/112 fan, so I'm certainly not picking on Buck. Just curious about your thoughts on the subject. I would be interested in hearing more specific answers to the 4 questions. :thumbup:
 
IMO, vertical play and wobble are entirely different animals.

Blade wobble, for me, is most often associated with peened pivot traditionals regardless of whether they are slip joints or lock backs. There's simply a limit to the amount of lateral stress this design can sustain without developing wobble. Wobble doesn't matter too much to me because it is so easily fixed with a padded vice. Heck... I've even taken the wobble out of several Swinden key knives. I just clamp 'em down with enough force that I'll either fix it or just bust it to pieces.

Vertical play is a reality with every traditional lock back that I've used, no matter what brand. As I understand the phenomena, there are 2 technical issues. The first and most obvious is the stability of the blade pivot pin and the lock bar pivot pin, both of which see significant forces under hard cutting. Several knife mechanics (I'm *NOT* one) have told me that their standard fix for vertical play is to replace these pivots. The worst knives I've owned in this regard were two Bucklite Max folders, both of which developed significant vertical play in less than a year. I sent them to Joe Houser and he confirmed to me in email that the plastic liner-less designs are simply weaker in this regard, as the frame material opens up allowing the pivots to move. The other Buck that was really bad in this regard was a Walmart Spitfire (I forget the exact model name). The pivot assembly visibly moved in the frame. That appeared to me to be a production QC problem with tolerances and I hope Buck works the kinks out, as I sort of like that knife.

The second and less obvious issue with vertical play is what happens at the blade tang/lock bar interface. To allow the lock bar to move into position, typically this interface has a slight angle. Under hard cutting pressure, the blade tang literally forces the lock bar up. You can feel this on most lock backs if you keep your thumb on the lockbar under hard cutting. IMO, this sort of "lock rock" is inherent with the lock back design but some are better or worse than others in this regard.

IMO, there is a real safety issue. I've heard many reports of people having lock backs accidentally closing on them when using the knife to cut limbs or tough rope. In all the reports that I've heard or read, the failure mode is the same. The user was cutting with an extreme amount of force and when the blade finally cut through the material, the blade snapped shut on their hand on the sudden follow through.

My understanding of this failure mode is that the hard cutting force lifts up the lock bar enough that the lock bar pawl no longer is in position to catch the blade. Then, when the blade breaks through the material suddenly, it snaps forward like a sling-shot and does so faster than the spring of the lock bar can recover.

I think the lock back design is fine for EDC and hunting uses. I don't think it's the best for applications (like brush cutting) that create this sort of hard cut & release scenario. If I'm clearing brush, I'll reach for an Opinel over any lock back, as the Opinel's lock ring design is pretty much impervious to developing vertical (or horizontal) play. (It has other weaknesses though, which is why I prefer a lock back for hunting.)

As much as I dislike Cold Steel (really, they make WWE look civilized), the Triad lock design fixes a real design weakness in the lock back design.

Interesting and informative post, pinnah. Thanks!
 
I have four 112s, a 482, a 110, a 501 and a 500. The oldest is the 501 which is a 2010 or 11 model and they all have ZERO blade play locked open:thumbup:! Only the 112 Ranger has a little blade play in the closed position but all lock up like a vault especially the 500 Duke! I couldn't be happier with all of them!
 
Answering your question directly...

1) Is it unfair to expect absolutely no play with this lock design?

Yes. Lock backs are, by design, prone to developing vertical play. Peened pivots, by design, are prone to developing horizontal play.

2) Is it unreasonable to send these knives back to Buck every time they develop a little play?

Only if Buck thinks so.

That's a dodge. Buck's warranty program is what it is and it would appear that their posture (like that of LLBean or REI) is that having a liberal policy ultimately leads to more customer loyalty.

Speaking for myself...

I find out of the box vertical play unacceptable and will send a knife back for that.

I find rapid development of vertical play unacceptable and will send a knife back for that. I've owned too many lockbacks that have resisted dramatic vertical play and my expectations have been set high by those experiences.

I find minor vertical play in an older knife to be expected and acceptable. I have a 2 dot 112 that has some play and will send it in for a paid repair at some point. I don't consider that to be a warranty issue (but Buck may disagree with that).

3) When the 110 was invented in the 60s, was "no blade play" even a thought or goal?

My sense is that 110 was first and foremost a hunting knife and as such, it's lock was and continues to be strong enough for that. In the 60s, flat peened pivots were the norm, and wobble accepted as normal if you pried with the blade. User error.

4) Are some users expecting too much because they’re comparing the 110/112 lock performance to more modern locks that were intentionally designed to reduce blade play possibility?

Yes. The 110 and 112 are hunting knives.

Related question though... Should Buck consider adding a Triad lock style stop pin? Pretty easy and elegant design improvement, imo.

My 110 and 112 were made in the 70s and do not have any blade play at this time, but if they do develop a little play in the future, I don’t think it would bother me or should it?

For EDC and hunting, it doesn't bother me. But for woodworking and hard cutting... Well, I generally reach for other non-lockback knives for that.
 
I've never had a Buck 110 (or Schrade LB7 or 7OT from USA or Taylor) develope any blade play, or have the lock fail.
I don't baton any knife, and I am not in the habit of stabbing automobiles and/or concrete blocks to death, like the majority of those "testers" or "reviewers" on YouTube, which may explain my lack of lock failure, broken blades, and the longevity of my knives.
 
I can't believe you read all that... ^
On your first question, I'd say perhaps.
On 2, I'd say yes. It is unreasonable. I've never seen so many OCD guys these days.
On 3 that was Not the goal of those knives.
On 4, Buck has responded to this and offered other models with locks designed toward no blade play.
Their 110 & 112 has not seen much change through the years. And many appreciate this. DM
 
On your first question, I'd say perhaps.
On 2, I'd say yes. It is unreasonable. I've never seen so many OCD guys these days.
On 3 that was Not the goal of those knives.
On 4, Buck has responded to this and offered other models with locks designed toward no blade play.
Their 110 & 112 has not seen much change through the years. And many appreciate this. DM

Again, these are my thoughts as well. I'm hoping this thread provides realistic expectations for new 110/112 owners.
 
I didn't know so many haven't experienced blade play. I thought it was normal. I by no means abuse my knives and use them for intended tasks. I said before that I don't mind that much because they've still been somewhat solid.

David, I always appreciate your insight and Buck knowledge. Very informative as always...
 
I can't believe you read all that... ^
On your first question, I'd say perhaps.
On 2, I'd say yes. It is unreasonable. I've never seen so many OCD guys these days.
On 3 that was Not the goal of those knives.
On 4, Buck has responded to this and offered other models with locks designed toward no blade play.
Their 110 & 112 has not seen much change through the years. And many appreciate this. DM



+1 My thoughts as well. Too many folks overthinking things.
 
As with most such things, it's probably a bit of each. I'm sure there are some who have unreasonable expectations for the durability of their knives, and I'm sure there are some who abuse their knives and then complain that they wear excessively. On the other hand, Buck offers and prominently advertises their "Forever Warranty," so I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect Buck to fix their knife if, under normal use, it doesn't continue to perform as they did when they purchased it. I would guess that the good will Buck gets from standing by their knives like that far outweighs the relatively small number of 110's and 112's that ever get sent back for repair.
 
All my 110 lock tight. Ne
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[/URL][/IMG]ver had an issue.
 
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